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Mecum Auction....nothing sold???

back to the auction

:iamwithstupid: sounds like there are still a couple of gear heads comen' up from our younger generation, great for you guys for raisen' them that way, 2 thumbs up from our forum members, that's great to hear...

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I personally think Mecum has done pretty well, they are up-to like 10 major auctions a year now, they have one coming up next year in Kissimee Fl. I think it is, that will be 10 days & 3000 cars suposedly... There's allot more affordable deals at Mecum, it seems like, than at the Barret Jackson auctions, but don't get me wrong, if you ever haven't been to a B-J auction, you really need to go, especially Scottsdale Az., it's a total bad *** car event, like the best car show ever & memorabilia displays, great food & drinks, that just so happens to have a "high end car auction too", that there is also some decent driver quality deals the 1st day usually...
 
I was thinking the same thing, nothing sold. I think the economy has caught up with the collector car market. Hopefully the bubble has burst, and flippers will get out...
 
The open checkbook type cars, that someone buys & has someone else build for them, spending $50k on restoration labor costs & $20k on parts, are going to be tough to make money on with the current market, for sure.... unless it's a Hemi or rare car like an A12 69-1/2, Superbird, Daytona, or something along those line possibly, it could hurt the builders/restoration shops & the restoration/reproduction parts industry too, the big Muscle car/Auction sale boom, was the reason we have so many parts available for our Mopars now, IMHO anyway, if they cant sell a bunch of that stuff, it will just go away again... those high priced over the top restorations, that sell for ridiculous $$$'s, helped to drive the parts end of stuff, too... it's all about the money unfortunately... if your not doing the car yourself, there won't be allot of profit in them, for the flippers... I build all my cars for me, how I want them & not for resale anyway, I'm usually upside-down financially on my cars almost always anyways, even with me doing all the work...LOL..
 
I'm a little younger than some of you and older than others (41) and here's my take on it -
My dad was a gear head growing up in the mid-50's and told me stories about working 3 jobs in high school and picking up 55 Chevy's, 48 Plymouths and 32 Fords back then for literally 300 bucks each! He said his grandpa had showed him how to wrench on cars and some average guys didn't know what to do when their cars stopped running, so they sold them. My dad grew up in Cody, Wyoming, population 4000 back then (and only 8000 today!). He would watch for those deals, spend 200 or 250 dollars, tow that thing home, get under the hood and low and behold - simple things were wrong like bad points and timing, maybe a leaky gasket, lifter noise, etc. In a weekend he would have that thing running and at one time he said he had like 7 of his own cars to drive and he was only 17! He called the 48 Plymouth the Black Bomb! Anyway, when he enlisted in the Army for the Vietnam war he was stationed in California and when he got back 2 yrs later his dad had sold all his cars because they were an eyesore and in the way! Aaaaarrrgggghhh! Man, I don't know how my pop kept from losing it. He eventually picked up a '63 convertible Impala, traded that in '67 for a barely used '67 Impala SS 4-speed (rare) and that's the car I learned to wrench on growing up. It was our ONLY family car, so we had to keep the darn thing running. Both my brother and I got to drive it in high school. I was always doing something to it and maintaining it, while my brother only looked at it as a form of transportation (albeit, cool looking transportation). He's still not that into cars to this day, while I am.

Fast forward 25 yrs and for the last 5 yrs I've totally been into Mopars and I'm 3 yrs into my '68 Satellite build. My point is, regardless of the generation, some are into it and some just have interests in other things. There are other hobbies besides cars, but I'm very thankful that my dad took the time to involve me way back when and it stuck. This hobby helps me keep my sanity, I never get bored, and there are far worse things to spend your time and money on. For us, my great grandfather was into it, but my grandpa wasn't, my dad was and now I am, but my brother isn't. My 10 and 16 yr old nephews like my 2000 honda civic better than my Plymouth, but my buddies son loves my car more than anything new on the road. I even got thumbs up and shouts a few weeks ago from some jr high kids as I was driving past a car wash. They were shouting how awesome the car looked.

Never underestimate the influence your enthusiasm about our hobby may have years from now. I've seen time and again when a guy I meet was around an uncle or his father or brother or buddy who had a classic car and then a decade or two later they recall something, there's a trigger, and they've got the classic car fever! Once they've got it, there's no turning back! I can speak from personal experience that other things my parents were into that I wasn't at the time; years later for some reason I got into those hobbies and the memories and nostalgia fueled my desire to become more involved and now those hobbies are favorite pass times of mine. I wouldn't be surprised if one of your sons you guys are speaking of calls you ten years from now and asks you some muscle car questions and gets into the hobby. ALWAYS KEEP YOUR DOOR OPEN FOR THEM and keep an open mind.

I really like Mecum (and even Barrett Jackson, etc.) because it gives exposure to all kinds of viewers that these cars are still out there and desirable. It may even spark some kid's interest who sees them on TV. The market is indeed soft. I saw many cars a few weeks ago on Mecum that were pre '70's cars sell for $4-9K and these were fully restored drivers. You couldn't put them in that condition for less than twice that.

Bottom line on selling these is that any car on any given day, no matter how much the overall community agrees it's worth - will only sell on that day for what the market will bear and if you have a buyer who wants it. It may not sell one day, but could sell the day after.

And although I can't stand what I call "Flippers" - people (kids and adults alike) who flip through their i-phones while eating out at the restaurant, I'm sure thankful for the internet right now. Without it I wouldn't be half as far along in my car build. I also think it's one more information source for people not yet into these cars to learn about them and get into it. Sometimes all it takes is a photo....

I just pray and hope the good 'ol U.S.A. doesn't try to do what France is attempting and ban any car older than 20 yrs old from the road, in a futile attempt to clean up the air...
 
...and spur car sales.

Most times, folks that have that attitude only see the folks driving poorly maintained 21 year old cars, and it never occurs to them that there are people driving 30+ year old, well maintained, windows into history.
 
This is not the first muscle car bubble to burst. This is the second bubble I have seen. Back in the late eighties was the first muscle car bubble. It was just as crazy as the last bubble. I remember thinking who would pay $25,000 for a 69 boss 429 mustang. By 93-94 the prices began to fall. Everyone thought mucslecar prices would never come back. As you guys know the prices did come back and musclecars were in high demand again. It took almost a decade but they did come back and they will again.
I don't buy into the thinking that once a generation starts to die off the cars they enjoyed would go down in demand. Back in the early 80's I wanted a 40 Ford coupe. A good original 40 coupe was hard to find and when you did find one they were priced high. They old guys that these car thought the 39-40 Ford were the best. I remember thinking in 10 or so years I should be able to pick one up cheap because the old guys that cherished these cars were getting old. Well thirty years later guess what a 40 coupe is still in high demand. I don't see muscle cars any different then the old 40 coupe. What was popular in the past will be populay in the future.
Enjoy the low prices while they last.
 
All I can say is my beloved passed on father left me his 70 coronet r/t and I LOVE it more than anything really .....I have so many memories of that car it is more than I can ever express

I like imports (they are of my generation) but I ALWAYS come back to the muscle cars that I have loved since I was a little kid sitting in the back of the 70 coronet
 
I was out of the hobby for quite a few years because I realized I had gone down the wrong trail. I had got sucked into the show car/originality mentality and had forgotten the actual fun of having these cars is driving them... frequently! Sinking tens of thousands of dollars into a dust collector that sits in the garage in between shows is a waste. Sinking a few thousand dollars into getting a car back on the road and driving the crap out of it is a blast! I got a laugh when tpodwdog mentioned the mid-life crisis stuff about wanting to relive our youth. :) Not long ago, my sister-in-law was over for dinner and her husband was checking out my car. She told my wife she hoped her husband didn't have a mid-life crisis like I did and want to get a car like that, and my wife told her that was the first car I ever owned, the second, the third, and I had been buying them as long as she's known me. She told her that any guy who buys the same make, model, and year of cars for 30 years shows a level of consistency that makes him a keeper. It's the guy who's never owned one his entire life and decides he wants his first one after age 50 that you have to worry about. ;)

As to the youth of today, I used to think the way tpodwdog does, but that was before I started using my car as a daily driver and getting to see lots of reactions from kids. Just Sunday, I stopped by a grocery store after watching the Steelers get creamed, and as I was backing out a boy, about 10 I would guess, came out with his mom. He looked at my car and he was in total awe. His mouth was literally open the whole way through the parking lot, and he was so intent on watching me back out he walked right into the side of another car. I would bet money that young man had never seen a Road Runner or many other old Plymouths in his life, and had no appreciation for our cars before then, but I sure as hell recognized the look on his face since it was the same one I had the first time I saw a 73 Road Runner back in 73. I pass a bus stop full of high school kids every morning on the way to work. When I drive past in my Interceptor, they're busy yacking, texting, and doing what kids do. On Thursdays and Fridays when I drive past in the Road Runner, most all of them stop what they're doing and watch me drive by. I've written posts before about some of the contacts I've had with young kids who have the same reaction to my car that I had at their age, so while I agree that love for these cars may not be hereditary within families, it does get passed down from generation to generation on the whole and when that kid from the parking lot grows up and has his own old Road Runner, I'm sure he'll be laughing like I did when he watches some awe-struck kid walk into another car because he's so focused on taking in his first real look at a cool classic car. :)

The reason why cars aren't selling at higher prices is best summed up in tpodwdog's statement "and thats my theory as to why these cars dont sell like "we" think they should", with "should" being the operable term. Our cars are selling, but they are not selling for prices some think they should be selling for. People need to wake up and realize that our cars have been artificially over-valued since the late 1980s! The prices in any collector hobby are driven by the forces of supply and demand, with the demand coming from collectors like most of us on this forum. Prices are set by how many cars are available and how much disposable income we have to put into them. What's important here is disposable income. We're not looking at these cars as investments, we're looking at them as cars. Our problem has been that since the late 1980s, our market hasn't been driven my collectors. It has been driven by investors who were looking for safe investment alternatives to items like stocks, bonds, and currencies after the stock market issues that began in 1987. These folks started snapping up these cars, which drove prices up, which drove more people to buy them as investments. Sadly, those of us who were collectors had to either pay out the *** to get what we wanted or do without.

It's no coincidence that the prices of these cars has been steadily dropping as the price of precious metals have been going up. Most of the folks who shifted their investments to classic cars for the past two decades are now shifting their money to precious metals. Precious metals don't need environmentally-controlled garages or other storage sites, don't need regular upkeep and maintenance, don't suffer from dry rot or mice, and most importantly can be bought and sold easily and cheaply without the hassles of finding a buyer who will pay top dollar for a car with a very limited appeal.

While this reality is a boon for those of us who are getting back into the hobby, it's a a serious bust for people who bought their cars when they were at the top of the mark price wise. The sad reality is these people paid prices that were set primarily by investors, using investment income, and those people have now left the market. Now the market price is being set by collectors, using disposable income, and prices are returning to where they should have been were it not for the influences of investors. Cars are no longer selling for what these people think they "should" be selling for because they became used to the inflated prices and don't like the idea that their car is now worth 20-50% of what they paid for it. And this situation isn't likely to improve. As more cars sell for lower prices, the new norm for people entering the hobby is going to be non-inflated prices and I think that's going to be a good thing for folks who love these cars. Yes, it's going to suck huge for the owners such as the ones at the auction who had their reserves set too high to protect them from a major loss, but it'll make it more affordable for the next generation of owners to enter the hobby.

I think the jump the shark moment for car prices came in 2009, when Reggie Jackson's '69 ZL-1 Camaro went on the block at Barrett's. Jackson had paid $800,000 for that car, and all the talk of the auction was the car was going to become the first million-dollar Camaro. The announcers were just hyping the crap out of that car. They were just panting for that $1,000,000 bid to be voiced, and what happens... the car barely breaks $300k! Talk about a WTF moment! :) That was the moment that started a distinct change in auction announcing. Gone were the days of "this is going to set a new record!", and in were the days of "that car was well bought!" When did you ever hear "that car was well bought" before then? Not often, but you hear it all the time now.

I think we're now getting to the point where we can get back to focusing on what cars "are" selling for and not what they "should" be selling for. :)
 
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A lot of cars get sold after they say..."the bid goes on".......alot of "one on one" discussions with a bidder(s) and the owner....not sure if Mecum lists all the sales after the auction is over on their web site.......never bothered to check
 
+1 for Bruzilla.

Well said.

I agree with all 100,000 words on each topic!
 
I think another major factor is that the increase in the number of auctions has watered down the market by spreading the big spenders across the country instead of getting them all in a room together on the same day...it also seems so overwhelming, you have shipping expenses to get the car there, seems like a lot of people use consignment companies to represent their cars, and then the auction fees. I think the sellers set themselves up to not be able to sell for a reasonable bid.
 
Plus you got to remember those auctions are a mix of good quality drivers and true numbers matching and sometimes rare examples. Those rare cars will always go for much more than most of us average middle income folks can afford and a lot of the bidders (not all) that are buying those cars have so much disposable income that recessions and layoffs don't matter to them. Sure they still want a good deal, but while you and I are debating whether or not to spend big bucks on TTI headers or try to make some headman or hooker super comps work, some of these buyers are acquiring 3 or 4 cars during a single 3 day auction. Even though there are less of these rare show quality cars sold, some of them seem to have a big impact on influencing market value for certain makes and models. Overall the market is indeed soft though but I don't think interest in these cars has lessened. I think it's increased, but people are just trying to work better deals for their money.
 
I think a good yardstick to gauge the market by is classic wooden boats, the old Chris Craft mahogany ones that sold for more than cars when they were new, are very highly collectible, and frequently restored but unlike muscle cars didn't attract investment capital the way cars did. You can get the top-of-the-line and rarest early to mid-1930s Chris Craft wood runabouts, fully restored or in excellent condition, for about $25,000 to $35,000. There were not that many made, there aren't many left, and demand for them amongst collectors is pretty high.

I think that had it not been for the ballooning of prices caused by investment dollars, we would see muscle car prices topping out at about the same point, $25,000 to $35,000. Hopefully, if we can keep the investors distracted by other shiny objects, we can see prices drop to this level again since the only thing that'll still be propping them up will be owners not wanting to take a big loss.
 
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Bruzilla is right. If you can say anything about a market of any kind, financial, real estate or collectible, you can always be sure that the market is going to change. Just one of the things that has happened in the past several years is that the the market for collector cars has pretty much flushed out the flippers/speculators. 5-15 years ago we used to see foreign money come into the auctions and buy up a lot of the expensive cars and either ship them overseas or salt them away in storage here. You don't see that anymore, and for the hobby, I think that's a good thing. You should be able to buy a nice ride for 15-30k and just drive it. I love to see these cars back on the road.
 
People get too caught up on "what's it worth" type ****, who cares WIW, find a project within your budget & build what you like or can afford, over time,if necessary & drive it, have fun, not every muscle car is a show car or trailer queen, or should they ever be... IMHO most of the rarer more desirable & high dollar $100k+ or less depending on how you look at it, high dollar collector cars have always been for people that have a "large disposable income" anyway, in the 80's-mid 90's it was Street-rods were way over priced & too many built, the market was flooded with pastel colored & tweed interior Street-rods, that sell for 1/2 of what they were 10 years ago, unless they are very good quality & not a fad type or outdated styling, very few people are able to spend $100k+ on just a toy, all at one time, they can do it over time usually much easier... The collector car/muscle car market has had many ups & downs over the years, rare "desirable" popular cars will always be worth more & probably unattainable to masses anyway, like always, it's the base model cars & resto-rods, project cars that most of us all feed on/purchase anyway, there are very few Hemi, Daytona, Superbird, A12 type car collectors out there, even fewer that can afford them, especially in this down economy, there always will be a big price difference in the rarer more desirable popular cars, than the base cars, we all want to buy & that the most of us are able to collect & drive, the market has just adjusted to a lower "norm" again, it will go up again, who knows when ??, but it always does & always will, the high end big $$$$ cars will still be out of reach for 99% of the population/collectors, they are the cars that took the biggest hit in prices too, not the base cars, most of us have or want, they are still around the same price as 10 years ago or even slightly cheaper in many cases... There are 2 very distinctly different markets, for 2 very distinctly different income levels.... If any of that made any sense...
 
what goes around comes around,,,and back again! be patient, meanwhile: drive em', enjoy, and smile! who cares about Mecum? it's just a show. JMVHO, Sonny
 
Cars are worth what someone is willing to pay for them.
I heard someone say the market will fall even more before it gets better so who's to say..LOL
There are some good deals out there these days though and there are some high priced not going to sell unless someone needs the money stuff as well.. Take your pick
 
what goes around comes around,,,and back again! be patient, meanwhile: drive em', enjoy, and smile! who cares about Mecum? it's just a show. JMVHO, Sonny

Excellent point, and what's even more interesting is it was the auction market that drove the distorted increase in prices, and it'll likely be the driver for the decrease in prices.

For those who weren't in the hobby back in the late 1980s, there wasn't much interest in auctions. Auto auctions were just a means of getting rid of cars quickly and easily. But then some corrupt individuals found that auctions were also a way to artificially increase the value of collector cars. High reserves and shill bidding became more and more common, and the car magazines were filled with stories about how certain cars were skyrocketing in price because they had been bid up to X dollars at some auction. Then you get the rest of the story about how the car didn't sell due to not meeting a reserve. It didn't take too long for collectors to catch on that they were being duped, mainly because there was no reason for someone to put a reserve price on a car that was way above its market value. We didn't find out how much of this was going on until some whistle blowers in the auctions started getting ticked that more and more cars weren't selling and started talking about how abnormally high the reserves had become, but by then the stories of how cars that had been valued at $6,000 had been bid up to $12,000, then up to $20,000, and on and on became the price setter. On the plus side, all this shady business going on throughout the auction business gave rise to the more professional ones like Barrett-Jackson to come to be the standard bearer and it was the investors and high-end collectors setting the prices vice a bunch of shady opportunists, which was evidenced by more and more cars actually selling at auctions.

Going back to the Reggie Jackson Camaro turning point, I think we're now seeing the auctions, with their widespread appeal and national televising, helping to bring prices back down. And going back to the subject of this thread, we're seeing more and more owners demanding high reserves to try to control the market price. If history repeats itself, it won't be long before the auction houses start stomping on owners over reserves again due to cars not selling (and their profits falling) and we'll start seeing the real impact of the investors leaving the hobby. We could also see the end of the super collectors who tend to buy these cars for the bragging rights of having them. Once the panache goes away, hopefully they will too.
 
Excellent point, and what's even more interesting is it was the auction market that drove the distorted increase in prices, and it'll likely be the driver for the decrease in prices.

For those who weren't in the hobby back in the late 1980s, there wasn't much interest in auctions. Auto auctions were just a means of getting rid of cars quickly and easily. But then some corrupt individuals found that auctions were also a way to artificially increase the value of collector cars. High reserves and shill bidding became more and more common, and the car magazines were filled with stories about how certain cars were skyrocketing in price because they had been bid up to X dollars at some auction. Then you get the rest of the story about how the car didn't sell due to not meeting a reserve. It didn't take too long for collectors to catch on that they were being duped, mainly because there was no reason for someone to put a reserve price on a car that was way above its market value. We didn't find out how much of this was going on until some whistle blowers in the auctions started getting ticked that more and more cars weren't selling and started talking about how abnormally high the reserves had become, but by then the stories of how cars that had been valued at $6,000 had been bid up to $12,000, then up to $20,000, and on and on became the price setter. On the plus side, all this shady business going on throughout the auction business gave rise to the more professional ones like Barrett-Jackson to come to be the standard bearer and it was the investors and high-end collectors setting the prices vice a bunch of shady opportunists, which was evidenced by more and more cars actually selling at auctions.

Going back to the Reggie Jackson Camaro turning point, I think we're now seeing the auctions, with their widespread appeal and national televising, helping to bring prices back down. And going back to the subject of this thread, we're seeing more and more owners demanding high reserves to try to control the market price. If history repeats itself, it won't be long before the auction houses start stomping on owners over reserves again due to cars not selling (and their profits falling) and we'll start seeing the real impact of the investors leaving the hobby. We could also see the end of the super collectors who tend to buy these cars for the bragging rights of having them. Once the panache goes away, hopefully they will too.

back in the 80's the internet and auction sites and TV coverage and cable and directv and all the media we have now didnt exist.
Times have changed as the times have changed. TV and the internet opened up doors and avenues and its about generating tv revenues same as all the other shows. The high priced collector days were the same in every disposable income industry in the 90's when money was spent outrageously. Look at sports cards and what the internet did for them. Now its all come back down to earth.. same as the other industries and its really not due to car flippers and collectors as much as it was a new toy and now reality has set in as the economy has been brought to reality.. Speculation in this industry is no different than the stock market or anything else as far as that goes and so it follows the same trends.
Look at what the internet did for daytrading and stock purchases...

new toy still being learned how to use it correctly is what i see
 
There actualy was a dip in values and prices in the early 90's. I distinctly remember several discussions about investors getting out and the "hobby" returning to affodability for the "common man".


I'd like to take a second to address the "worth what someone is willing to pay" statement that I've seen posted quite frequently by several members-


While absolutely true, it's also absolutley unnecessary, and adds nothing to a discussion.

Once you have multiple someones who are willing to pay a similar ammount for a simmilar car, you can start to analyze that data, and provide value estimates. There are professional resources for this, some free.

We on this board conceivably qualify as one of those resources, due to tracking of sales, asking prices for unsold cars, and familiarity with certain models, not tomention personal experience.

A reply to a post seeking guidance on value which simply says "what someone is willing to pay", is at best useless, and at worst insulting.
 
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