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Need help with my 440

jasonblinn

jasonblinn

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hello. i recently installed a rebuilt '72 440 motor in my '69 charger. the motor is bored .030 over, steel crank, flat top pistons with valve relieves, stock 346 heads with 3 angle valve job, and a stock 440 mopar cam, (268/284 0.450/0.0458) engine is dynoed at 386 hp, and 480 ft/lbs of torque with stock manifolds and stock intake. i was told it had 9.5-1 compression. problem is when the motor had about 1500 miles on it, i over revved it for approximately 5 seconds doing a brake burn. i dont know how high it was revving as my tach doesnt work. the motor ticked for about 10 seconds, due to a dry lifter im assuming, then was spark knocking and lost a little power. got home and took it apart, found 2 bent push rods ( not that bad ) so i replaced them. seemed to be working better, but still didnt have the power it 1st had, and would spark knock every once in a while. then it started to get worst. brought it to a guy that knows more about mopars then me, he messed with the timing a bit, but no change. now the spark knocking is getting worst, and i dont know where to check next. would some1 know what could be going on inside that motor? could the cam be getting bad? we checked the compression, i have 190 lbs in all 8 cylinders. when the engine is warm, even with the coil wire unhooked the engine almost starts, is this normal? i'll have to take the engine out soon, just wondering if someone could help me out then i'd know what to look at 1st. thanks
 
My first concern would be "what bent the pushrods?" The RPM itself isn't likely the cause, but perhaps valves striking the pistons as a result of over rev could be. Do you now have marks on the pistons causing hot spots resulting in pre-ignition?
I had a camshaft go bad and the associated lifter hang up in the lifter bore once.... This caused a valve strike and the engine ran rough "like a bad plug, down one cyl". It too had a bent pushrod and bent Exh valve.
Hard to say for certain in your case though...
Good luck!
 
I agree with 67 B-body, you may have floated the valves and had some valve to piston contact. Hot spots may account for the engine trying to ignite the AF mixture with the coil wire disconnected. You may also want to check inside the distributor, maybe a broken advance spring could be causing your pinging.
 
Ditto. If you bent pushrods that can only mean, mechanical interference. You probably have some valves not seating properly, hence the power loss. I'd pull the heads.
 
thanks guys. i haven't had the motor apart yet, it still runs, doesn't skip or anything, just loud pinging when i accelerate fast. it's spark knock for sure. if i drive normal it works pretty good, but harder on gas than when i 1st put the motor in and not as much power cause i have the timing set back. i'm pretty sure i floated the valves. but if it had a bent valve it shouldn't have 190 psi in each cylinder. also we had the distributor apart, no broken springs, we tried different springs, even tried another distributor off an excellent running 440, and no difference. i'm taking the valve covers off in the next day or 2, and crank it over to see if all the valves are opening all the way. hopefully i will see something. thanks again
 
I had a scare that I won't go into now. Have it tuned by someone who knows how. Put a rev limiter in it to prevent future over revs. Good luck.
 
With 190 PSI in every cylinder it doesn't seem likely that you bent a valve enough to make it leak. The bent pushrods could indicate that you reached a resonance point in the valve train. As far as the pinging goes that might be a hot spot as suggested but from where? How hard does the valve need to touch the piston to cause raised material on the piston top that might be a hot spot? And if it hit hard enough to cause a dent wouldn't that bend a valve? You may have broke at least one top ring and perhaps that is causing some extra oil to get by. Whatever is going on it does sound like it got hurt and needs to be investigated further.
 
hey guys, started taking my 440 apart. got the heads off, and there is alot of oil buildup on the intake valves, and on top of the pistons too. at 1st we thought it was worn out guides, but then we looked further and we found it was coming from my pcv valve. checked and no baffle in the valve cover. would this be causing all that pinging noise? also the plugs are a rusty brown color?
 
jasonblinn said:
hey guys, started taking my 440 apart. got the heads off, and there is alot of oil buildup on the intake valves, and on top of the pistons too. at 1st we thought it was worn out guides, but then we looked further and we found it was coming from my pcv valve. checked and no baffle in the valve cover. would this be causing all that pinging noise? also the plugs are a rusty brown color?
Click to expand...

First of all the push rod could have come out of position when it was over revved do to valve float. If it got out of the cup in the rocker or lifter it could have bent them w/o valve damage. Since the heads are removed , pour mineral spirits in the ports and see if they leak, that will tell the story. I believe your spark knock is detonation being caused by oil in the chambers. I once repaired a Ford for a friend that had an oil light coming on, knocking, and terrible smoke. These symptoms all occurred at the same time. Turned out that it was sludged up ( not in your case). When it went around a corner the oil was stuck in the valve cover, the PCV pulled it in, then it would knock and smoke like crazy. Relocated the PCV, problem solved. When it over revved did valve float damage any of the valve seals, crushed? Intake gasket leaking drawing oil into the ports? Let us know what you find.
Doug
 
hey Doug. none of the seals are damaged or crushed. heads are newly built, 3 angle job, new manley valves. only about 3000 miles on the motor, so i can't see they would be leaking, especially with 190 psi in every cylinder? i dont know if i should just clean everything up and put back together and put a baffle in my valve cover or remove the pcv valve all together. or take the motor fully apart and look for other damage? cant see if would be anything in the bottom though
 
jasonblinn said:
hey Doug. none of the seals are damaged or crushed. heads are newly built, 3 angle job, new manley valves. only about 3000 miles on the motor, so i can't see they would be leaking, especially with 190 psi in every cylinder? i dont know if i should just clean everything up and put back together and put a baffle in my valve cover or remove the pcv valve all together. or take the motor fully apart and look for other damage? cant see if would be anything in the bottom though
Click to expand...
It's getting oil from somewhere internally, correct? Is it all cylinders? Do you see it coming down the stem? From between the intake and head? Poor ring seal, hone, gaps butting? What do you see? Follow the trail carefully and let us know.
Doug
 
Put in a valve cover with an oil baffle in it. Oil getting in the combustion chambers will make it ping. Try some race gas, see if that makes the ping go away.
 
hey Doug, yes it's in all 8 cylinders. all intake valves are full of oil buildup. on top of the valve. it looks like it coming from the pcv valve, but the intake is dry.
hey Gary, i had tried race gas earlier, only put a couple of gallons in about half a tank of gas, it had helped, but the pinging was still there, not as bad though. what i find weird it that it wasn't doing this before i over revved the engine
 
Did you solvent check the valves yet?
Doug
 
no Doug i have not . i'm thinking about putting aluminum heads, Edelbrocs e-street maybe. and put a baffle in the valve cover, and hopefully it'll fix my problem
 
The E Street cyl heads look to be a great choice! They come in 75 or 84 cc chamber size. And at 291 CFM airflow on the intakes @ .600" lift, that is awesome. Should be able to approach 600 or more horse power on a well built engine. Just calculate your C/R to keep it in line with the fuel you plan to use.

- - - Updated - - -

Do your pistons come to the top or close to top of the block?

- - - Updated - - -

Be sure to keep oil out of the combustion chamber. That really increases the tendency to knock.

- - - Updated - - -

At .022 deck to piston clearance, .020 head gasket, .030 over size piston, and 84 cc heads, with a flat top piston you will have 10.7 to 1 C/R. 75 cc heads gets you to 11.7 to 1. Your C/R and fuel octane rating will help to determine whether or not the thing will knock or ping. All other factors being equal. Also your elevation above sea level, and total timing. At 5600 feet MSL, I can get away with 13 to 1 C/R on a street/strip motor by using higher octane fuel. And this 451 has awesome torque and horsepower. No knock issues either.
 
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