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Questions about Disconnecting Vacuum Advance

67Satty

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I've been dealing with a slight, intermittent miss at idle and it breaking up at higher revs. I took my car into a guy for another set of eyes/ears. I didn't say anything about the symptoms. He noticed the symptoms right away. He tried moving the vacuum line from manifold to ported and it still did the same thing.

He then disconnected the vacuum advance line and plugged all ports in the carb and it revved cleanly, no miss, no breaking up.

He suggested a just run it that way. He said the breaking up might be from detonation from getting too much advance from the vacuum advance. He checked the timing with it disconnected and it was at 16 initial and 34 total in by 3200 rpm. The car now seems to run better than it ever has - smoother idle, better part-throttle response. But I've only cruised around town a few miles so far and haven't really gotten on it yet. Only thing is it's a little stinkier at idle (that might be my imagination).

The distributor is a custom curve for my car from Don at FBO. Car is a '67 Satellite with a 440, stock 452 heads, RPM intake, 850 DP Holley, hydraulic 238 @ .050 cam, 4200 stall Dynamic, 3.91s., runs 7.80s to 7.90s in the 1/8 at 86 mph but breaks up at the upper revs causing me to short shift while doing it.

Should I just try running it at the track with the vacuum advance disconnected?

Should I figure out what's wrong with this distributor and try to make the vacuum advance work?

Is hooking up the vacuum advance for the street and disconnecting at the track an option?

Should I just use a mechanical advance distributor? Any recommendations?

Thanks for any advice.
 
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I would look at a spring kit, to stabilize the advance. Too fast will do what you are experiencing, and too far of an advance will as well. Originally the advance was designed to extend the total advance around 4-5 degrees, and under load to advance faster. Pure mechanical reduces the total advance, but weak springs will advance quickly, and that won't help if it is advancing too quickly. Many distributers sold by Chrysler for example, have really weak springs. But 102 octane is very expensive, so this isn't the 70's anymore.
 
Too fast will do what you are experiencing, and too far of an advance will as well. Originally the advance was designed to extend the total advance around 4-5 degrees, and under load to advance faster. Pure mechanical reduces the total advance, but weak springs will advance quickly, and that won't help if it is advancing too quickly. Many distributers sold by Chrysler for example, have really weak springs. But 102 octane is very expensive, so this isn't the 70's anymore.

Would adjusting the vacuum pod help with any of this?
 
If you trust your mechanic and he said you have 16* initial and 34* total mechanical advance, all in by 3,200 rpm, I think that's a good set-up for your car. As long as there's no detonating and the plugs look good, I'd go ahead and run it. If you want to run the vacuum advance on the street you can reduce the amount of vacuum advance in it by adjusting the small allen screw inside the vacuum can (if your vacuum can has it). If you spend a few dollars on a timing tape, using a timing light you can see the amount of advance that the can adds when you hook it up. Generally speaking, you can add 10-12* advance (added to your 34*) for a total of 44-46* when cruising under light throttle. When you romp on it, the vacuum falls off and the curve reverts to the mechanical specs. If your motor runs worse, or you get detonation (pinging), with the use of a timing light, adjust less vacuum advance in the can. Trial and error. And yes, although there is no good reason to do so, you can connect or disconnect the vacuum advance for the track if you want to. You may have to re-adjust the idle SPEED with the vacuum disconnected.
 
you might want to look at the air gap between the reluctor and magnet. that needs to be .008 at full vacuum advance. when the vacuum advance pulls the plate it can change the air gap. if the magnet and reluctor are touching the engine will run crappy.
 
I highly recommend the vacuum advance be hooked up to run on the street. When cruising around at part throttle the volumetric efficiency of the engine is diminished quite a bit and as a result the amount of air/fuel mixture is less. Less volume of stuff to compress means pressure will be lower. Having the extra lead time the vacuum advance provides makes sure what is in the cylinders is lit and the flame front has enough time to travel across the combustion chamber. You want peak combustion st 15 degrees ATDC. Get a hand held vacuum pump and pop the cap off. Hook the pump up to the can and watch the movement in the dizzy. See if the pickup gap is closing or opening as you apply vacuum. Is all looks well, put the cap back on and start it up. With a timing light attached, use the pump to apply vacuum and see how much advance it gives you. Adjust as necessary
 
Would adjusting the vacuum pod help with any of this?

it very well could, I have mine still on, great for cruising, stop & go traffic & adjuster screw inside the pod turned almost all the way in IIRC... the heavier/slower curve activation springs & lighter weights also will help also to change where the advance is coming, sometimes a combination of them & in & also how fast, even the total advance can be limited by them... what works on mine may not be great with yours, mine is 15*-16* at idle & 34*-35* when full advanced including the 18* added by the combined/mechanical & vacuum advance, if I disconnect my MP CEI Dist. @ the vacuum advance, I only get like 12* of mechanical advance, for a total of 27*-28* @ 3000rpm with the stiffer/heavier springs {sorry I don't have a spring color} IIRC they were from Moroso or MR. Gasket brand maybe, I got them many moons ago... I think MoPar Performance sells a spring & weight kit for their distributors too... My point is, there's more than 1 way to skin a cat !!

- - - Updated - - -

you could always try disconnect it at the track too, couldn't hurt, might help if your not tuned properly...
 
you might want to look at the air gap between the reluctor and magnet. that needs to be .008 at full vacuum advance. when the vacuum advance pulls the plate it can change the air gap. if the magnet and reluctor are touching the engine will run crappy.

OK, another dumb question by me. How do you check the gap to see what it is at full vacuum without the engine running? Do you push or pull on something to simulate it getting full advance?

I did check it again and found that the magnet and reluctor were touching, so I set it again to .008. I'm not sure how it could've tightened up after I set it to .008 the last time.
 
OK, another dumb question by me. How do you check the gap to see what it is at full vacuum without the engine running? Do you push or pull on something to simulate it getting full advance?

I did check it again and found that the magnet and reluctor were touching, so I set it again to .008. I'm not sure how it could've tightened up after I set it to .008 the last time.
Loose screw, behind the wheel...LOL... sorry, just messing with ya'
The gap doesn't change with advance, just the plate the magnetic pickup mounted on moves advanced, not the air gap itself inbetween the reluctor/pickups, stays the same... Make sure you use a not magnetic brass/bronze type feeler gauge to check, your air gap or you could/will possibly mess things up between the magnetic contacts... good luck
 

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A correctly hooked up vacuum advance does nothing at idle or WOT. It is simply an add on feature to help part throttle driveability . But the mechanical curve has to be right to begin with. I think a stone stock dist curve would be just fine in your app.
 
the air gap can change as the vacuum advance pulls the plate. the arc of the plate when pulled is not concentric with the rotation of the reluctor. thats why the magnetic pick-up and reluctor need a .008" min gap. another thing that makes matters worse is that the 8 "spikes" (for lack of a better term) are not concentric with the center of the reluctor. so what needs to happen is the vacuum advance needs to be pulled fully open and then the .008" air gap set on the "spikes" that have the furthest run-out. that means that some of the "spikes" may be .010", or a little more. clear as mud?
 
so what needs to happen is the vacuum advance needs to be pulled fully open and then the .008" air gap set on the "spikes" that have the furthest run-out.

Sorry to be so dense, but how do I do what I put in bold from your quote above?
 
I think lewtot184 refers to the lobes. The gap can change from lobe to lobe, depending on wear. I average all the gaps on the bench, and find what works best. .001-.003 is tolerable. the Increased voltage makes up for the variation.
 
there you go! Just remember, the lower the quality of the gas, the slower the rate of the advance. A combination of rate of advance, and total advance, the fuel plays a big part.
 
You have a bad distributor. The race distributor is set up to pull in sooner a lot like the junk your running.... but not so far it's hammering the pistons. I run points and for $50 am not afraid to replace it.... most any distributor can and should be adjusted there are springs for the mechanical and an Allen's screw for the vacuum advance so at idol you have 16° and 3200 you have 34° and 50° max coming in after that to red line... with a weak diaphragm it's something like 16° 40° 60° blocking the vacuum 16 ° 34° 34° but how reliable is it. Get a new one
 
Here's a good read, I saved this some time ago, many have opinions, this is from a Chrysler Engineer.

Ported Vacuum vs. Manifold Vacuum
As many of you are aware, timing and vacuum advance is one of my favorite subjects, as I was involved in the development of some of those systems in my GM days and I understand it. Many people don't, as there has been very little written about it anywhere that makes sense, and as a result, a lot of folks are under the misunderstanding that vacuum advance somehow compromises performance. Nothing could be further from the truth. I finally sat down the other day and wrote up a primer on the subject, with the objective of helping more folks to understand vacuum advance and how it works together with initial timing and centrifugal advance to optimize all-around operation and performance.
TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101
The most important concept to understand is that lean mixtures, such as at idle and steady highway cruise, take longer to burn than rich mixtures; idle in particular, as idle mixture is affected by exhaust gas dilution. This requires that lean mixtures have "the fire lit" earlier in the compression cycle (spark timing advanced), allowing more burn time so that peak cylinder pressure is reached just after TDC for peak efficiency and reduced exhaust gas temperature (wasted combustion energy). Rich mixtures, on the other hand, burn faster than lean mixtures, so they need to have "the fire lit" later in the compression cycle (spark timing retarded slightly) so maximum cylinder pressure is still achieved at the same point after TDC as with the lean mixture, for maximum efficiency.
The centrifugal advance system in a distributor advances spark timing purely as a function of engine rpm (irrespective of engine load or operating conditions), with the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in determined by the weights and springs on top of the autocam mechanism. The amount of advance added by the distributor, combined with initial static timing, is "total timing" (i.e., the 34-36 degrees at high rpm that most SB's like). Vacuum advance has absolutely nothing to do with total timing or performance, as when the throttle is opened, manifold vacuum drops essentially to zero, and the vacuum advance drops out entirely; it has no part in the "total timing" equation.
At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees
from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at
50mph).
When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve,
etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open,
manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing
back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the
distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back
off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the
mixture again becomes lean.
The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and
springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on
the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the
correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean
and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but
it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle
cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is
inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine
controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100
times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.
Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of
controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements,
years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude bandaid
systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust
stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in
the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold
vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This
meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum
value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less,
and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase
exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the
"afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R.
system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy
was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle -
cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the
drain, and fuel economy went down with it.
If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines,
you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in
the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open
throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state
highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all
manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions
strategy, and nothing more.
What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.
Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.
For peak engine performance, drivability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely, Positively, don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don’t understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts.
Courtesy John Hinckley Retired GM/Chrysler Engineer
 
old_school that's a great read...
 
Thanks! I thought so too, coming from a Chrysler engineer, made me sit up and listen.
 
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