440 build vs buy?

[Shorthorse]

All good posts. You mentioned you would like around 500 HP. As 69a100 said, you've got to find out exactly what parts are in the engine, what's been done to the heads, who did the machine work etc. Has the seller ever dyno'd the engine and does he have the results? To echo what 440beep said, getting 500 HP is not as easy or cheap ($3800) as you might think.

Sorry, meant to edit, not reply. Duh!

 

[67convertible]

Over the past 4 months i just went through what you are starting. buy, build myself or have a engine builder put one together with my specifications for the street. I put the options on a spreadsheet but note i have built several street engines myself. I came to the conclusion it was in my best interest to have an engine builder (who used to drag race mopars) build it and dyno the engine. Yes, cost more but the engine is blueprinted and run in. The dyno numbers came in at 493 HP and 612 FT. .LB of torque on the 508 stroker.. I know what i have! Please note my builder built a chevy stroker for my chevelle. I had an engine issue (at 300 miles on the engine) that was caused me to pull the engine, but the engine builder repaired it on his dime.
Anyway, you have to make the choice BUT be remember, you get what you pay for!! Mopars do cost more than a chevy or ford engines..

 

[66Satellite47]

If you buy a used motor take it a pro builder & have it looked at. A really meticulous builder will see future problems. There is both power and reliability in that approach. Talk to the guys at the track that go fast & don't break. Find out who the good builders are. Some are small time operations but pay attention to what they put out the door.

 

[moper]

x2^^
I know of more small time private builders that I would recommend long before most of the local "pros" around me.

 

[Cranky]

If you buy a used motor take it a pro builder & have it looked at. A really meticulous builder will see future problems. There is both power and reliability in that approach. Talk to the guys at the track that go fast & don't break. Find out who the good builders are. Some are small time operations but pay attention to what they put out the door.

Private builder here.....and I never liked someone bringing me stuff that someone else built to check out. First off, they didn't want to pay my time plus if I found something wrong, they'd argue with me that just because someone else built it, I was biased so I usually turned them down. I just could not put my seal of approval on another builder's work and then have them come back to me if something went wrong. I stand behind the stuff I built and not other's work....and I'm sure the 'pro' guys don't like it either but if they do check it out, they are going to tear it completely down and build it back up....which isn't going to be cheap.

 

[moper]

I don't care who built it. If it comes to me to. E inspected you can be sure that everything will be. And when it leaves it's to my standards so it's all on me. Just as if it was from me initially.
$3800 is a good deal on those parts. But there's no guarantee it will be right, or even adequate. Still a good deal, just get it to a good builder and have it all checked. Will still be cheaper than building it new and starting from scratch.

 

[66Satellite47]

Don't really disagree with Cranky's comments. But if you buy a used motor I sure a profession should look it over. If that takes a rebuild that's what it takes. My first drag car motor was a used 426W & I had it re ringed, new bearings, & heads milled for straightness. The car went much quicker. A pro like you can make all the difference.

 

[Shorthorse]

.030 with new pistons? What's the compression height of them? Motor homes engines replacement pistons are deep in the hole and are low compression. How much experience do you have with engines? Enough to understand what compression height of a piston is? What is the piston ring type? Moly is good, run from chrome unless you plan on dirt track racing. At least that's the way is was years back. He listed a lot of name brand parts but didn't list any specs on them. His price is very low imo for all of those name brand parts but there's not much info on specs. If he can't answer questions on them, then he's blowing smoke. If he can, go look at it. If there's RTV oozing everywhere, walk away from it. Even if he wiped it off on the outside, you can't clean it up on the inside. The more engines you look at, the better you can tell if someone knows what they are doing and even then, there's no guarantee but spending time around engines and people who build them does help you become more educated imo. And at the very least, take a compression tester with you and check it out. If it's a running engine that is broke in, it should give you a good test.

Definitely agree. One other simple thing is to stay on subject when dealing with a seller. Ask questions and listen closely. Sometimes, not always, the conversation can give you clues as to the competence of the seller.

 

[Cranky]

The last time I inspected someone's prior build, it didn't go very well....at least not for me. The one/ones that built the engine did fine except they just weren't clean enough and a very small particle locked up the oil pump which only had .001" of rotor clearance....but who checks oil pump clearance. I DO!! If it had had .002", maybe the particle would have made it through and the filter would have got it? The problem was the guy that owned the engine didn't want to spend money on another build since he already spent a lot of money on parts etc. First off he wanted to reuse ALL the gaskets! The head gaskets were a maybe. Then he wanted to change the intake and various other parts AFTER I had it together and nearly ready for delivery and then argued why I would charge him for that since it was still on the stand. The guy picked my brain about combinations etc before having it built. I thought I was going to do it but he instead let the inmates at the county jail do it. He was a jailer there and it impressed me that it ran at all. This story doesn't stop there but I'll spare y'all on that lol. Didn't say I wouldn't 'inspect' someone's engine.....but just don't really like to.

 

[wsutard]

Thanks for all the replies. Sorry I have been absent but I was slammed on a business trip.

I don't plan on racing with my car. Just a street machine with good power. I'm not so concerned that the engine has 500hp in the dot. Just that it's close or has good components to get it there.

Cost is a factor. My first choice would be to connect with a builder. Second would be to build it myself. Third, buy one complete. Problem is my budget arranges that in the opposite direction.

I have been communicating with the seller. Here are some videos he took upon my asking.




I believe he has documentation on all this so I will see if I can take a look at those.

This engine is about 7 hours away from me so taking a look at it before it's removed won't really work.

I'm not afraid to walk as my 340 pulls the Coronet around fine.

 

[wsutard]

My other thought was to turn my 340 into a stroker. However, I think that would actually cost me more than buying a 440 and then selling my 340.

Also, seems sacreligious to take a specialized 340 and mess with it like that. (It's a 68 out of a Dart GTS)

 

[66Satellite47]

No offense to the small block guys, but when I was bracket racing in the '70's, '80's & a bit of the '90's there were VERY few small block's that stayed consistent throughout a race. And cost always seemed comparable or more for a small block for about equal power. With a 440 just decide how much you want to spend & that'll give you a certain level of power Like they say "speed costs". My limited experience lately hasn't changed my opinion on either of these issues. The parts did look good, I'd still have a known pro take a look. Money back guaranty if it doesn't check out?

 

[bm02tj]

If you agree on minimum requirements for the motor and have a reputable shop dyno the motor you will know it runs and will give you what you want
Just research the shop
And make it clear the seller pays if not up to claims

 

[66Satellite47]

I my opinion, not only dyno check, but look at cylinder walls, everything about the heads, leak check, sonic check what' available on the cylinder walls, pull a few bearing caps. It's worth the price of gaskets & should be worth the price of labor if you've got good builder.

 

[mopar 3 B]

I still think this is a bad idea. Your 340 runs, you can drive the car and enjoy it. Your quest for more power will cost you more than $3800 even if the engine pans out. Are you prepared to spend twice that and still not have a driveable dependable car . If this was a project car with no engine or drive train I would say go for it but that is not the case.
I know you have thought about this for awhile but have you actually made a list of what you think this will cost for the engine, transmission, radiator, different driveshaft and rear end. Compile that list and then double the cost then ask yourself if the budget will support it and will it be worth the time the car will not be usable.

 

[66Satellite47]

I still think this is a bad idea. Your 340 runs, you can drive the car and enjoy it. Your quest for more power will cost you more than $3800 even if the engine pans out. Are you prepared to spend twice that and still not have a driveable dependable car . If this was a project car with no engine or drive train I would say go for it but that is not the case.
I know you have thought about this for awhile but have you actually made a list of what you think this will cost for the engine, transmission, radiator, different driveshaft and rear end. Compile that list and then double the cost then ask yourself if the budget will support it and will it be worth the time the car will not be usable.

I can't disagree. 40 years ago my buddy's & I came up with the X2 theory. List everything you can think of, multiply by 2. It's always been pretty close. Sometimes even a little short. Need to decide what the car will be used for.

 

[moper]

There's really only two sides here: You have the cash to take a core and completely go through it locally, working with a builder for a fresh engine with little element or risk taken because you can exercise your control and spend more as needed. Or - you don;t have the cash to do it all new locally, and you have to minimize risk exposure and do what you can.
IMO - if the seller can provide you video of the engine's oil pressure and temp while it's running in the car, and professes to have the receipts, it's worth the commitment to take the drive and have him pull it. When you get there, pull a valve cover and the dip stick and you can visually check parts and internal condition. Then negotiate and hand the cash over and take it home. It's a pile of $3800 in parts, and might be a great running engine. IMO there's not much risk there. Budget another $1500-2K for gas & tolls, having it torn down and freshened, and potentially needing a few parts and you are still a couple grand easy ahead of building it's equal from a core 440.

 

[66Satellite47]

Building from scratch costs. I just did that with a premium builder. Cost came out about 50% higher than my estimate. However the results are extremely good. Sometimes you really do get what you pay for. Buying used is always a chance. You can buy a motor said to be fresh & have it blow up in a few days, had a buddy in that situation. Or the thing may work great. Ya takes your chances. If you have a pro check it out, you can avoid the catastrophe.

 

[IQ52]

There's really only two sides here: You have the cash to take a core and completely go through it locally, working with a builder for a fresh engine with little element or risk taken because you can exercise your control and spend more as needed. Or - you don;t have the cash to do it all new locally, and you have to minimize risk exposure and do what you can.
IMO - if the seller can provide you video of the engine's oil pressure and temp while it's running in the car, and professes to have the receipts, it's worth the commitment to take the drive and have him pull it. When you get there, pull a valve cover and the dip stick and you can visually check parts and internal condition. Then negotiate and hand the cash over and take it home. It's a pile of $3800 in parts, and might be a great running engine. IMO there's not much risk there. Budget another $1500-2K for gas & tolls, having it torn down and freshened, and potentially needing a few parts and you are still a couple grand easy ahead of building it's equal from a core 440.

This is really very good advice. It has a point I tried to make earlier, you have $3800 in parts. It is a good start. And if it runs good you're way ahead in the money game. Buy the owner a good oil filter, take his off, cut it open, press the oil out of the filter element and look for junk in the filter.

 

[Cranky]

No offense to the small block guys, but when I was bracket racing in the '70's, '80's & a bit of the '90's there were VERY few small block's that stayed consistent throughout a race. And cost always seemed comparable or more for a small block for about equal power. With a 440 just decide how much you want to spend & that'll give you a certain level of power Like they say "speed costs". My limited experience lately hasn't changed my opinion on either of these issues. The parts did look good, I'd still have a known pro take a look. Money back guaranty if it doesn't check out?

I've had a couple of small blocks that were very consistent as far as ET's go. It was usually me that either slept at the line or red eyed (red lit more often than sleeping) but the two most consistent cars I've ever owned were powered by a 440 and a /6! Never dreamed that a /6 would do that lol