440 build

[MO.RR]

I know it’s been asked a million times so here’s a million and one. I’m going to send off the bottom end of a 68’ 440 I picked up recently to get new bearings and rings. While it’s away I’d like to start piecing together the top.
Here’s what I’ll be going off of. 68’ road runner, a/t stock converter, powers steering and brakes, 3.23 SG full interior car. Can only get 91 octane locally.
Measured the pistons .050 below deck and are going to stay that way, just replacing rings. What I have already are full length headers, (3) 452 (1) 906 heads, torker 2 and 2806178 intakes, msd 8387 distributor, and accessories from from my other 440.
So, looking for a cam that is streetable, good power, good vacuum. And wether to spend money on some heads like some sidewinders or mill the 452’s. Just want a good fun driver so trying to keep it as budget friendly as possible.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

I know it’s been asked a million times so here’s a million and one. I’m going to send off the bottom end of a 68’ 440 I picked up recently to get new bearings and rings. While it’s away I’d like to start piecing together the top.
Here’s what I’ll be going off of. 68’ road runner, a/t stock converter, powers steering and brakes, 3.23 SG full interior car. Can only get 91 octane locally.
Measured the pistons .050 below deck and are going to stay that way, just replacing rings. What I have already are full length headers, (3) 452 (1) 906 heads, torker 2 and 2806178 intakes, msd 8387 distributor, and accessories from from my other 440.
So, looking for a cam that is streetable, good power, good vacuum. And wether to spend money on some heads like some sidewinders or mill the 452’s. Just want a good fun driver so trying to keep it as budget friendly as possible.

Are you wanting to change valve springs or running stock ones?

 

[wyrmrider]

with your pistons .050 down you are not going to get any quench with 915 or aluminum closed chamber heads- although they will flow better
you can mill the 452's but it will not help much and with that early piston you may already have as much compression 91 octane will handle with no quench and iron heads
cc heads and post
also post the volume of the cylinder clearance or calculate it and post
what compression do you come up with with fel pro gasket, with.028 Mr gasket gasket??
can't talk cam till you know this
If you want it to last make sure the 452s have not worn through the induction hardened valve seats
putting in 1.81 valves also takes away the hardening so I do not recommend for long life builds without hard seats
check the guides carefully
if you need seats and guides then aftermarket heads become a real option and much more flow and future
I don't think torker II is a good fit with heavy car and 3:23 but some have spent the time to make it sorta work
best maniflold/ carb is dual plane (stock and q jet or stock and AVSII)
or aluminum stock replacement
For cam straw man depending on compression
for true 9:1 is 256 Voodoo or 256 Howard (with 16 in the "notes" column of the catalog) or 256 Mike Jones (short duration lots of lift and area under the curve)
have your guides cut for viton seals
forget roller tip rockers
Comp does not have a cam smaller than 275HL for Mopars that can compete with these three

 

[Jerry Hall]

So the engine is not all 68? 452 heads should have been 906's in 68. I would work the heads,and use the stock 440-6 Mopar cam with some better springs than stock and what I called in the day, anti-pumpup hydraulic lifters.

 

[wyrmrider]

440-6 mopar cam is timing wise the same as any HP cam
problems are it is long duration and low lift
especially long on the closing side which gives terrible dynamic compression on the intake and bleads off power on the exhaust
it has lots of overlap which makes exhaust run hot
using one of the cam's I mentioned can lower EGT by 500 degrees
Intake duration is over 290 @.004 and over 300 on the exhaust
really need the compression up there to make it work (and to make the compression work) which is not possible on 91 octane
so go shorter duration and more lift
at lest we are not talking a smog era 400/440 where the HP cam is a real disaster

 

[MO.RR]

440-6 mopar cam is timing wise the same as any HP cam
problems are it is long duration and low lift
especially long on the closing side which gives terrible dynamic compression on the intake and bleads off power on the exhaust
it has lots of overlap which makes exhaust run hot
using one of the cam's I mentioned can lower EGT by 500 degrees
Intake duration is over 290 @.004 and over 300 on the exhaust
really need the compression up there to make it work (and to make the compression work) which is not possible on 91 octane
so go shorter duration and more lift
at lest we are not talking a smog era 400/440 where the HP cam is a real disaster

- I’m not opposed to changing springs
- how do you calculate cylinder clearance?
- had 1 452 and 1 906 head on the 68 block, bad on me for not checking thoroughly when I bought it

 

[khryslerkid]

I went with the Summit 6401 cam. Budget build, '67 440, trw's .050 in the hole, 452 heads.

Forgot to mention 9:3.1

https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showcase/member/khryslerkid.3078/

 

[Jerry Hall]

440-6 mopar cam is timing wise the same as any HP cam
problems are it is long duration and low lift
especially long on the closing side which gives terrible dynamic compression on the intake and bleads off power on the exhaust
it has lots of overlap which makes exhaust run hot
using one of the cam's I mentioned can lower EGT by 500 degrees
Intake duration is over 290 @.004 and over 300 on the exhaust
really need the compression up there to make it work (and to make the compression work) which is not possible on 91 octane
so go shorter duration and more lift
at lest we are not talking a smog era 400/440 where the HP cam is a real disaster

I know cam technology and head options are many today. I'm just old school and go with factory style parts as done in the day. That works well for me, it just makes gas more expensive as I run 98-100 octane non-ethanol in everything except the race Hemi which gets 110-112 race fuel. Under those conditions they run and perform as they did when new. Needless to say if I ever go in a different direction with today's crap gas I will be asking you guys for my options. I really like the Gen III option and have a couple done that way. The only drawback I have is I cannot venture off futher than a tank of fuel will take me and get me home.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

MO.RR. are you going to do any head porting? If so how much? IMO.452s aren't a bad head to learn on if you want to try. 906s are not a good head to learn on without a flowbench. On the flowbench I have seen 452s gain a lot when ported...even at the lower lifts with stock valves.
As far as Cylinder clearance most compression calculators like summit's just ask for the cc of piston dishes/domes/ eye brow cc's ( I think your pistons are flat top with no valve releifs??) then ask for your deck height that you already have measured @ .05 plus your head gasket thickness( you need to know what thickness your going to buy) Most over the counters are .039 or .045. But factory steel shims ran about .02...mr gaskets like wyrmider mentioned .028 would be a great set to get. Head cc you also need to know but 452 typically run about 90cc.
Need all those variables to help choose a cam that has the proper dynamic compression for pump gas to recommend the best cam. We have a great dyno simulator I can run for you .... But real world experience is important. Lots of experience to draw from on this forum.

 

[wyrmrider]

Nothing wrong with the factory cam in a factory compression motor. (that 50 years won't fix- valve springs are much better now)
Cam was designed with long ramps to keep it quiet through high mileage
It's "warranty design for Idiots" (for those over reving their stick shift six packs)
- do you need that?
then was kept because the overlap acted like extra EGR (but melted the exhaust)
I think when they kept the HP cam in the low compression motors Chrysler had just given up
in the 73 and later big blocks the low compression requires more throttle to get the same power and that extra throttle goes to heat.
Ever drive a 78 440 Cordoba- factory gave me one
no power and no gas mileage one
they had to use a looser converter to get them to move even with the non HP cam
we did a lot of R and D work
welded up the chambers
special pistons (these became the KB line)
flogged cams
you can lower EGT 800 degrees in a late motor home- no more glowing cherry red exhaust manifolds
new motorhomes were burning up first time out on way to Vegas in the summertime

 

[MO.RR]

MO.RR. are you going to do any head porting? If so how much? IMO.452s aren't a bad head to learn on if you want to try. 906s are not a good head to learn on without a flowbench. On the flowbench I have seen 452s gain a lot when ported...even at the lower lifts with stock valves.
As far as Cylinder clearance most compression calculators like summit's just ask for the cc of piston dishes/domes/ eye brow cc's ( I think your pistons are flat top with no valve releifs??) then ask for your deck height that you already have measured @ .05 plus your head gasket thickness( you need to know what thickness your going to buy) Most over the counters are .039 or .045. But factory steel shims ran about .02...mr gaskets like wyrmider mentioned .028 would be a great set to get. Head cc you also need to know but 452 typically run about 90cc.
Need all those variables to help choose a cam that has the proper dynamic compression for pump gas to recommend the best cam. We have a great dyno simulator I can run for you .... But real world experience is important. Lots of experience to draw from on this forum.

I was thinking about giving it a try. Either I try my hand with some templates or I go for something like what marsh or Indy have in 80cc’s along with a head gasket that will get me to something that doesn’t have to be tuned to perfection to run on 91. I’m trying to stay low buck after buying this 440. I posted up on another website about it and decided to run what I had in it without going way over budget on machine work and pistons. And yes they are the flat tops. Cams are something I haven’t completely wrapped my head around yet.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

I was thinking about giving it a try. Either I try my hand with some templates or I go for something like what marsh or Indy have in 80cc’s along with a head gasket that will get me to something that doesn’t have to be tuned to perfection to run on 91. I’m trying to stay low buck after buying this 440. I posted up on another website about it and decided to run what I had in it without going way over but get on machine work and pistons. And yes they are the flat tops. Cams are something I haven’t completely wrapped my head around yet.

If you can swing aftermarket heads go for it. It typically takes a lot of porting to flow as much as a as cast aftermarket head. The first set of heads I ported were 346s. Using a home made flow bench I have ported many different heads and sometime what looked good hurt the flow. The 346s seem to respond pretty well to most of the port work I have done. So I say go for it. It is a dirty time consuming job.
The better the heads flow a cam with more lift is going to outperform other cams. Also mopars larger .904 lifter can have a more aggressive cam that other brand x's can only dream about. More lift with less seat timing and a aggressive profile is the direction I would look for starters.

 

[MO.RR]

How hard is it to mess up a 452? I have an extra no thanks to the guy who sold me the engine. I’m not chasing HP numbers, just a fun street car. I’ve been out of the game for awhile and prices have soared on some stuff which is why I don’t want to completely change the whole car setup i.e converter, gears, back to manual brakes.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

I get what your after...I have have had lots of fun with builds like your doing. The 452s are hard to screw up. Port the bowl then blend it in to the port. The short side radius is pretty forgiving and seems to respond to what looks good. In general anything you can do to make the port "taller" works good and will smoke a stock head and can run with the aftermarkets. Grinding the short side radius doesn't make the port taller and we usually only grind there to blend it into the valve. But on a 452 it doesn"t seem like you can hurt it much on that side it just doesn't gain much flow.

I still enjoy porting I feel like it's a lot of bang for the buck. But I would hate to put a price on all the time we have spent grinding...it would be cheaper to buy new heads I would guess. In max efforts we have even ground through water jackets, push rod holes, and into the valve cover. But have had good luck welding things back up...so far. Lol

You have a nice compression already for pump gas. 3.23 is a nice gear you don't need low end grunt cam like you would need for 2.71. You can run a pretty good sized cam imo and still pull enough vacuum for your brake booster. We are putting a 12v vac pump in one car to run the vacuum brakes. They are affordable now...they weren't available or affordable 20 years ago...but Its something we haven't tried yet...so verdict is still out. Reading about it looks like people get along with the mid level vac pumps. The cheap ones are loud and don't last..according to internet posts. Lol.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

To keep your vacuum up for your brakes I'd suggest you don't go past 60 degrees of overlap with a 9 to 1 engine. A 256 voodoo would run great but I like some lope on my cars. A 262 or 268 voodoo with 9:1 should run your brakes fine and love some head porting. Any more cam from the voodoo series then I think you need more compression. Comp Cams extreme high lift 275/287 is bigger yet and designed for .904 mopar lobes would like a little more converter. At the drag strip it would be a little short on bottom end but on the street it's not likely to be hooking up anyway. We like to get custom ground cams from bullet. Our fuel economy has been better with straight duration cams and a tighter lsa..like 108. We've done close to 20 of 6400 series summit style cams. If you don't port the heads they are kind of stock or step over stock generic cams that with 1.5 rockers work with stock springs. Comp cams nostalgia 280/287 .474/.474 is a version of mopar performance .474 cam. It probably hits the ceiling for vac brakes. It would be ok, it's one we've run but I like other grinds better.

 

[MO.RR]

But real world experience is important. Lots of experience to draw from on this forum.

This is why I ask. I’m not a stranger to mopar, it’s just been a really long time since I’ve had one that didn’t run on a computer.

Here’s my dart after I sold it. The guy I sold it to even detuned it to what you see in the video.

 

[wyrmrider]

you can sorta use the Mopar porting templates
but if you have access to a guide and seat machine you can do most of the work by cutting a multi angle valve job
45 around .060 and 60 about the same then 72 or whatever works with your head- to give valve to throat ratio you are looking for
30 and maybe a 15 degree top cut
then hand blend the bottomcut to the bowl
you can narrow the guide
and raise the port as said above but the bowl work gives you the most bang for your time
just clean up the short side
do not bother with the intake face- it is not the restriction
personally I would not fool with iron heads if they need guides and seats
unless it's a matching number restore deal
remember intake flow does not like to hit the top of the cylinder- exhaust does not really care

if you are running a .500 lift cam and have a worn intake seat just put a larger valve at 30 degrees on the current 30 degree top cut location with proper seat width then proceed with narrower 45 and 60 degree cuts
30 degree seat/ valve gives you more "curtain" than a 45 degree seat for each increment of valve lift
curtain is the area of the cylinder of the inside of the valve seat to the valve
compare 45 degree area with 30 degree area

 

[khryslerkid]

you can sorta use the Mopar porting templates
but if you have access to a guide and seat machine you can do most of the work by cutting a multi angle valve job
45 around .060 and 60 about the same then 72 or whatever works with your head- to give valve to throat ratio you are looking for
30 and maybe a 15 degree top cut
then hand blend the bottomcut to the bowl
you can narrow the guide
and raise the port as said above but the bowl work gives you the most bang for your time
just clean up the short side
do not bother with the intake face- it is not the restriction
personally I would not fool with iron heads if they need guides and seats
unless it's a matching number restore deal
remember intake flow does not like to hit the top of the cylinder- exhaust does not really care

if you are running a .500 lift cam and have a worn intake seat just put a larger valve at 30 degrees on the current 30 degree top cut location with proper seat width then proceed with narrower 45 and 60 degree cuts
30 degree seat/ valve gives you more "curtain" than a 45 degree seat for each increment of valve lift
curtain is the area of the cylinder of the inside of the valve seat to the valve
compare 45 degree area with 30 degree area

Now with all of that said, is it worth doing if you don't have any quench to start with? (Like 9:3.1 .050 in the hole flat tops, 88cc heads)

 

[Curiousyellow71]

I wouldn't mess with the template either...not on 452s. Do have to be careful choosing the cam if you end up doing 30 degrees seats. Cams that close the valve 2 fast Comp XE will bounce the intake valve at around 5000. You can run more spring pressure to compensate but those types of cams work better w 45 degrees seats.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

Now with all of that said, is it worth doing if you don't have any quench to start with? (Like 9:3.1 .050 in the hole flat tops, 88cc heads)

Yes quench is great...it is more efficient imo. Building a engine from scratch it's a good way to go.....but the big open chamber with a flat top piston is one giant explosion and it doesn't have a lot of hot spots in the combustion chamber that can cause detonation.... It can make good power 2. Some serious HP can be made without quench.