440 Harmonic damper

[Ray Howes]

Good afternoon folks.
Having a timing issue that hopefully is an easy fix.
Trying to dial in the timing on my car and at TDC the timing is at 40 degrees advanced before it's running good and smooth.
But at TDC the timing mark is no where near "0", as a matter of fact it is almost 1" below zero.
Now, with what I can tell you, it is a 1977 HP block if that matters and the timing cover is an after market job with the separate timing gauge.
I noticed on 440 Source website, part numbers for the 1973 and 1977 cast dampers are different.
So is it possible to put an incorrect damper on that will throw the mark off by that much?
I really can't tell you much more as this engine came with my 1st 73 400 Rallye car some 28 years ago, have only ever been able to set it up by ear before now and that was always good enough for me.
Would really like to get it dialed in.
Before you offer suggestions, my knowledge is basic as far as setting timing, so I am just being presumptuous that it has something to do with the damper.
Thanks for any help
/direction you can provide
NOTE, we have used 2 different timing guns, same result.

Thanks. Ray

 

[Ray Howes]

Good afternoon folks.
Having a timing issue that hopefully is an easy fix.
Trying to dial in the timing on my car and at TDC the timing is at 40 degrees advanced before it's running good and smooth.
But at TDC the timing mark is no where near "0", as a matter of fact it is almost 1" below zero.
Now, with what I can tell you, it is a 1977 HP block if that matters and the timing cover is an after market job with the separate timing gauge.
I noticed on 440 Source website, part numbers for the 1973 and 1977 cast dampers are different.
So is it possible to put an incorrect damper on that will throw the mark off by that much?
I really can't tell you much more as this engine came with my 1st 73 400 Rallye car some 28 years ago, have only ever been able to set it up by ear before now and that was always good enough for me.
Would really like to get it dialed in.
Before you offer suggestions, my knowledge is basic as far as setting timing, so I am just being presumptuous that it has something to do with the damper.
Thanks for any help
/direction you can provide
NOTE, we have used 2 different timing guns, same result.

Thanks. Ray

One more thing, running HEI module if that matters.

 

[pnora]

I would find true top dead center and verify the balancer marks.

 

[Bird 426]

Your balancer may have slipped the outer ring. Or do big blocks have different side for timing marks like small block?

 

[BSB67]

Trying to dial in the timing on my car and at TDC the timing is at 40 degrees advanced before it's running good and smooth.
But at TDC the timing mark is no where near "0", as a matter of fact it is almost 1" below zero.

I really don’t understand what you did to come to this conclusion. Please elaborate on what you did to establish true TDC and the evidence that it is incorrect by 1”.

 

[Ray Howes]

With the timing Mark at "0" the piston was not at the top.
We were using a breaker bar on the crank to move the damper to "0" while my cousin checked the number 1 cylinder.

 

[BSB67]

Did you use a piston stop or a dial indicator with the head off.

How did he check?

 

[Ray Howes]

Did you use a piston stop or a dial indicator with the head off.

How did he check?

Nope, screwdriver.

 

[BSB67]

Is the piston 1 inch down in the bore at TDC, or is the Balancer off by 1” from the TDC mark?

 

[Ray Howes]

Is the piston 1 inch down in the bore at TDC, or is the Balancer off by 1” from the TDC mark?

Sorry, hope I am not frustrating you!
The timing Mark on the balancer is approx 1" below the "0" on the timing cover. We have the car dialed in perse' by ear and it left several pairs of evidence down my road, we are just trying to figure out why he can't get the mark on the balancer near the "0", without the car stalling out?

 

[Don Frelier]

I would suggest installing a new balancer.

 

[BSB67]

1. It is not possible to put on an incorrect balancer.

2. The balancer outer ring could spin.

3. I don’t know if a screwdriver in the plug hole is very accurate. The piston does not move much +/- 1” either side of TDC.

4. 1” is 15 degrees. It doesn’t explain why you need 40 degrees for it to run right.

Did you work on the motor before trying to time it?

 

[Lefty71]

. It is not possible to put on an incorrect balancer.

Why not? Just curious.

 

[Ray Howes]

1. It is not possible to put on an incorrect balancer.

2. The balancer outer ring could spin.

3. I don’t know if a screwdriver in the plug hole is very accurate. The piston does not move much +/- 1” either side of TDC.

4. 1” is 15 degrees. It doesn’t explain why you need 40 degrees for it to run right.

Did you work on the motor before trying to time it?

The motor was put in this car in about 1999 and was a running motor with a wild cam and high-rise set up. We moved it into my present car and got it running in 2013 after replacing it with a milder cam, intake and carb setup. The engine had some work done to it prior in the form of pistons, lifters and guides. When we got it going we got it running without a proper timing for all these years. It never seemed to be at it's full potential and I moved away from my cousin who had been helping with the mechanicals. I had an electrical issue with the car that had me scratching my head, he made the trip today and was able to solve the electrical problem. Since he had time, he decided that we should get the engine dialed in to utilize the horsepower. Hence today's issue.
He is GM Red Seal Technician and has had mopars so he is no slouch to problem solving. He suggested I go to the well to see if anyone had any ideas. He did mention that the balancer may have slipped but wanted to see what anyone else thought.

 

[pnora]

Was the cam ever degreed? Like I said earlier find true top dead center. I would invest in a stop and find the true top dead center. If the marks are off find out why. Cover tab or balancer. If the marks are correct I would suspect a mis-degree-d cam.

 

[Ray Howes]

Is the piston 1 inch down in the bore at TDC, or is the Balancer off by 1” from the TDC mark?

Thanks guys, just speaking with him and we are going to run it to his shop in the next couple of weeks to have a more in depth look at where TDC is. The crappy roads should be cleaned up by then. Cheers. Ray

 

[BSB67]

Good. Check and measure the balancer. Then you’ll know for certain, and can take the next step with confidence.

 

[BSB67]

Why not? Just curious.

If there was such a balancer, one that had the necessary dimensions to work, except the timing mark off 15 degrees, we would hear about it weekly on every Mopar forum out there.

 

[RemCharger]

The timing mark will be dead on no matter what balancer. We need a pic of what this after market bolt on gauge is.