440 stock intake; whats the best carb choice .....

[RJRENTON]

3310-1 (don't know if it was a -1 or just 3310 before the -2 came out) was a great carb, changeable jets on BOTH ends, and secondary diaphragm tunable.

The Holley 4150 Model 3310-1 is rated at 780 CFM, down leg secondary booster venturii assemblies. -2 and -3 varients are rated at 750 CFM and are the Model 4160 design. The 3310-1 is easily tunable and beats the CARTER/EDELBROCK AVS2 in all regards plus has the ability to flow more air at a slightly greater pressure drop.........just my opinion of course......
BOB RENTON

 

[Geoff 2]

Where is the proof that a Holley 3310 beats an AVS2 'in all regards' & where is the proof that the 780 cfm Holley flows more than the 800 cfm AVS2?

 

[Photon440]

The Holley 4150 Model 3310-1 is rated at 780 CFM, down leg secondary booster venturii assemblies. -2 and -3 varients are rated at 750 CFM and are the Model 4160 design. The 3310-1 is easily tunable and beats the CARTER/EDELBROCK AVS2 in all regards plus has the ability to flow more air at a slightly greater pressure drop.........just my opinion of course......
BOB RENTON

The redesigned annular boosters on the AVS2 are quite responsive, and tuning is super easy. You can change the metering rods and springs without taking the top of the carb off or losing a drop of fuel. Just get the calibration kit and you have everything you need; a box with various assortments of jets, matched pairs of metering rods, different stiffness springs and instruction charts and graphs showing a range of vacuum and mixture richness setting. Even if you do change the jets as well as the rods, you still don't spill any fuel while doing it.

 

[tmaleck]

Where do you connect the electric choke to?

I grabbed power from the wiper motor circuit. Don't use the ballast resistor or ignition coil wires, it will mess with ignition power.

 

[440 4 speed]

The redesigned annular boosters on the AVS2 are quite responsive, and tuning is super easy. You can change the metering rods and springs without taking the top of the carb off or losing a drop of fuel. Just get the calibration kit and you have everything you need; a box with various assortments of jets, matched pairs of metering rods, different stiffness springs and instruction charts and graphs showing a range of vacuum and mixture richness setting. Even if you do change the jets as well as the rods, you still don't spill any fuel while doing it.

 

[440 4 speed]

I used an AFB on ours for some years after we got it in 2004. Also had a Holly double pumper for a while.
Really liked the 4640 AVS that we used on our trip to the Charger 50th.
Now I have a correct 750 AFB to install when the motor goes together.

 

[RJRENTON]

Where is the proof that a Holley 3310 beats an AVS2 'in all regards' & where is the proof that the 780 cfm Holley flows more than the 800 cfm AVS2?

long as the fluid speed is sufficiently subsonic (V < mach 0.3), the incompressible Bernoulli's equation describes the flow. Applying this equation to a streamline traveling down the axis of the horizontal tube gives, From continuity, the throat velocity Vbcan be substituted out of the above equation to give,

Solving for the upstream velocity Va and multiplying by the cross-sectional area Aa gives the volumetric flowrate Q,

Perhaps you should do the calculations using your data to satisfy your claim, if you're able A small change in the venturi pressure drop does affect the overall CFM by ~18 WITHOUT any real consequence. There may be a slight flow velocity decrease because of density changes (air + fuel vapor). That is correctable thru small jetting change if required to obtain uniform mixture distribution. It's obvious that Boyle's law applied adjusted for density.
Maybe you should look into the actual theory of design rather than quoting advertising chapter and verse. Just remember a carb works on the differential pressure principle....regardless of the way that the fuel,is introduced in the air stream....annular booster vs down leg boosters. That way you'll have have a better understanding of how a carb functions, rather than just a glorified parts replacer, using the guess and see what happens ......just my opinion of course......
BOB RENTON

 

[1967coronet]

Damn Bob, Take a asprin and slap a ice pack on the old noggin.
My head hurt just reading that. On second thought , I'm going to grab a beer.

 

[WileERobby]

Where is the proof that a Holley 3310 beats an AVS2 'in all regards' & where is the proof that the 780 cfm Holley flows more than the 800 cfm AVS2?

 

[Photon440]

long as the fluid speed is sufficiently subsonic (V < mach 0.3), the incompressible Bernoulli's equation describes the flow. Applying this equation to a streamline traveling down the axis of the horizontal tube gives, View attachment 1649625​ From continuity, the throat velocity Vbcan be substituted out of the above equation to give, View attachment 1649626​

Solving for the upstream velocity Va and multiplying by the cross-sectional area Aa gives the volumetric flowrate Q,

View attachment 1649627​

Perhaps you should do the calculations using your data to satisfy your claim, if you're able A small change in the venturi pressure drop does affect the overall CFM by ~18 WITHOUT any real consequence. There may be a slight flow velocity decrease because of density changes (air + fuel vapor). That is correctable thru small jetting change if required to obtain uniform mixture distribution. It's obvious that Boyle's law applied adjusted for density.
Maybe you should look into the actual theory of design rather than quoting advertising chapter and verse. Just remember a carb works on the differential pressure principle....regardless of the way that the fuel,is introduced in the air stream....annular booster vs down leg boosters. That way you'll have have a better understanding of how a carb functions, rather than just a glorified parts replacer, using the guess and see what happens ......just my opinion of course......
BOB RENTON

That's a lot of wordage that doesn't answer the question. Do those equations show that the AVS2 is better or not? For Bernoulli's principle to apply, the flow must be steady. Unless the plenum is extremely large, the signal to the carb is not steady but rather a series of pulses. Do you know the actual pressure drop for both types of carbs? Understanding that annular boosters can significantly increase low rpm. torque due to the more efficient high velocity air/fuel mixing coupled with the ease of tuning the secondary opening without needing different springs is part of the reason that I like the Edelbrock design.

 

[Geoff 2]

Bob,
You were the one who not long ago ON THIS FORUM claimed the Edel AVS carbs had annular secondary boosters. So much for your knowledge.....
Trying to bamboozle people with BS again I see......
It gets a bit tiresome......
And then with the exact science of carb airflow, you use words like may be, sufficiently subsonic, can be substituted; adds a lot of 'ifs' to the equation, pardon the pun.
I am not making any claim, you are......
I asked for proof that a 780 H flows more than the 800 Edel. Still waiting for the proof....
I know how carbs work & probably did before you did....In 1967, I was fitting dual 35mm Dellorto carbs to my Knucklehead HD. What were you doing?
Finally to finish with some common sense: the 780 H has 1 11/16" t/bores; the 800 AVS is 1/16" larger at 1 3/4". Also the sec venturiis in the AVS are quite large. So the odds are that the AVS does flow more than the smaller Holley.

 

[Geoff 2]

Photon,
The metering rod carbs like Carters, QJ are faaar superior to the H carbs [ & clones ] that use a power valve. Look at the torturous path the fuel has to take from the PV in a H carb to get to the booster. It slows throttle response.....There is a reason H did NOT use a PV in the Street Demon carbs, but borrowed heavily from the Carter TQ design...
As for airflow, fancy formulae do not take into account things like booster shape, thickness, venturi entrance & exit angles. The carbs need to be flow tested to yield the flow.

 

[Houle #382]

I'd go Edelbrock AVS2 model 1906. The AVS is the newer version of the Carter AVS carb Mopar used. I had a Street Avenger and fought that SOB for months. I've been doing carbs for 40+ years and that Holley made me go throttle body EFI. It's almost too tuneable. I always liked the AVS series carbs back in the day, and the improvements Edelbrock has done made it even better.

I agree with you on the 1906, I'm running one with a few changes on a mild built 440 and it's an incredible street carb and it's so easy to tune it's not funny

 

[RJRENTON]

Bob,
You were the one who not long ago ON THIS FORUM claimed the Edel AVS carbs had annular secondary boosters. So much for your knowledge.....
Trying to bamboozle people with BS again I see......
It gets a bit tiresome......
And then with the exact science of carb airflow, you use words like may be, sufficiently subsonic, can be substituted; adds a lot of 'ifs' to the equation, pardon the pun.
I am not making any claim, you are......
I asked for proof that a 780 H flows more than the 800 Edel. Still waiting for the proof....
I know how carbs work & probably did before you did....In 1967, I was fitting dual 35mm Dellorto carbs to my Knucklehead HD. What were you doing?
Finally to finish with some common sense: the 780 H has 1 11/16" t/bores; the 800 AVS is 1/16" larger at 1 3/4". Also the sec venturiis in the AVS are quite large. So the odds are that the AVS does flow more than the smaller Holley.

Im trying to show you do not know the fundamental principles of carb design (or physics) and application which you demonstrate with alacrity and predictablity ......stick to changing parts mot designing them. If you cannot do or understand the math involved....fine....admit it and move on.....the fundamental principles work for all manufacturers......
BOB RENTON

 

[RJRENTON]

View attachment 1649744

Pictorial euphemisms don't prove anything.....show your calculations based on measurements......just a thought....
BOB RENTON

 

[WileERobby]

Pictorial euphemisms don't prove anything.....show your calculations based on measurements......just a thought....
BOB RENTON

Yes ! The proof is in the taste ! My pudding tastes good ! And, I've been a fan of the 3310 for over 50 years, one of the mods we did on customers cars in the garage back in the day. You & Geoff can go argue... I'll eat my pudding

 

[Photon440]

Pictorial euphemisms don't prove anything.....show your calculations based on measurements......just a thought....
BOB RENTON

I must have missed the thread where you showed your calculations based on measurements.

 

[4speed68rt]

Us kids hate it when you fight. Let's agree that you are both super smart and helpful to us all and move on.

 

[Geoff 2]

Bob likes to baffle us with his BS, but anybody can pluck that info from the net....or a book. Below is from Larew's Carburetion book......

I am sure most people working on their carb only have a vague idea, if any, who Bernoulli is/was.
Probably think he runs the Italian restaurant on main street.....

The silly claim that the 780 H probably flows more air than the 800 AVS could probably be shown to be false by........just looking at the specs of each carb. And leave Bernoulli to RIP...
So what are the specs:
800 AVS: pri & sec bores are 1 3/4". Pri vent 1 17/32". Sec vent 1 5/8".

780 Holley: pri & sec bores 1 11/16" [ 1/16" smaller than the AVS ]. Pri vent 1 3/8" [ 5/32" smaller than the AVS ]. Sec vent 1 7/16" [ 3/16" smaller than the AVS ]
Yes, the AVS does have the larger annular pri boosters, but it is hard to believe that they alone could reduce the airflow to less than the 780, when every other dimension that favours airflow is bigger on the AVS....

 

[66 Sat]

So come on, let's see the teacher show the pupils the answer.
Over to you Bob, show the calculations for each carb so we know which one flows the most.