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8-3/4 Rear Axle Bearings

Early spring inspection on my Challenger, turned up a few needs for repair. One is the right rear axle seal. Looks like the bearing needs to come off, to replace the outer seal, so I'm considering going to the "green" bearings, and eliminate the adjustment set. Anyone been running these, and Pros or Cons ? We put these in my Son's Duster, years ago, but the car hasn't seen much usage. Looking for some feedback, Thanks...View attachment 1450537
Nothing wrong with green bearings, just remember they don't last as long as the OEM tapered bearings, but since most old muscle cars don't get driven a lot of miles not usually a problem. I personally like the tapered bearings, just because they can be adjusted, repacked with fresh grease, and a tapered bearing takes a load on the side as well as on the perpendicular. I also notice that a well set up tapered set up rotates a little easier. But the main thing is whatever bearing you choose the wedding ring or retainer ring needs to be heated when pressing it on, or you may distort it and the bearing can slide off during driving, seen it happen a couple times, hard on quarter panels.
 
If you’re running rear aftermarket disc brakes like Wilwoods the green bearings are needed to eliminate the play so the disk’s won’t move. I have them on my charger and no issues. Even with a sure grip. I also put them in dads 66 polara 4dr HT back in 2004. Have a bunch of miles on them and no issues. If your throwing the car sideways or cornering hard tapered rollers are the best. Like it’s been stated before nothing wrong with the originals and their easy to set.
If a tapered bearing is adjusted properly there is no play. Tapered bearing require preload, hence no play.
 
If a tapered bearing is adjusted properly there is no play. Tapered bearing require preload, hence no play.
R r, Thanks for the input. This thread is from early Spring, and I installed Stock Timkens, and adjusted per the FSM. Was good all year...
 
If a tapered bearing is adjusted properly there is no play. Tapered bearing require preload, hence no play.
Sorry but that's incorrect....they absolutely do have some endplay, .013"-.023" according to the FSM...
 
It depends on WHERE the bearing is located.....is it on the differential carrier assembly or the pinion shaft, where the coveted Ford 9" used three bearings: the carrier used bearings on the sides....with a ball bearing on the pinion nose to control the separating forces of the pinion gear tooth/ring gear interface....?? Just asking so I can better understand .....ball bearings are great but depends on the application.
BOB RENTON
I thought this thread was about AXLE bearings??
 
Sorry but that's incorrect....they absolutely do have some endplay, .013"-.023" according to the FSM...
That's a 'cold' measurement'.....have you ever checked them after a long hot drive? I never have but can imagine a lot of that end play gets pretty close when measured hot.
 
Well, this went into the weeds. As much as green bearings get talked about, there should be a How To thread on them.

I have ZERO interest in using them on my car. Taper roller bearings flat out work and are dead nuts reliable. The adjustment process is minimal for the durability you receive in return. And it is easy. As far as end play, I set them by feel and have never had one fail.

From my cold, dead hands...
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Screenshot_20231029-104301_Gallery.jpg
 
Well, this went into the weeds. As much as green bearings get talked about, there should be a How To thread on them.

I have ZERO interest in using them on my car. Taper roller bearings flat out work and are dead nuts reliable. The adjustment process is minimal for the durability you receive in return. And it is easy. As far as end play, I set them by feel and have never had one fail.

From my cold, dead hands...View attachment 1547789View attachment 1547790
I've always done it by feel too.....and if you know what the thread pitch of the adjuster is, you can get pretty dang close without a dial indicator. And I have dial indicators lol.
 
Should really snug them up, spin the axles and then back off to your setting. So everything gets settled in.
 
If a tapered bearing is adjusted properly there is no play. Tapered bearing require preload, hence no play.
That's more true on the front wheels but not on an axle that's as long as the width of the car. The axles will grow length wise as they heat up. If the bearings have no play cold, you will have problems when the axle shafts heat up....and those problems ain't good.
 
That's a 'cold' measurement'.....have you ever checked them after a long hot drive? I never have but can imagine a lot of that end play gets pretty close when measured hot.
I have checked just cause I was interested to know. This was on a 67 c body after about 200 mile run @ 80 mph average speed. Went to a buddy’s house and swap wheels with him so we both were interested. Cold was about 0.015” hot was 0.002”. I always set mine about 0.015” but I too am guilty of just setting up by wiggle test. Only had 1 bearing ever fail and that was on this same car when i first got it going and had only checked the oil in the rear diff. Had no rear brakes but had to take it for a 20 miles test drive. By the time I got home that bearing was toast.
 
I have checked just cause I was interested to know. This was on a 67 c body after about 200 mile run @ 80 mph average speed. Went to a buddy’s house and swap wheels with him so we both were interested. Cold was about 0.015” hot was 0.002”. I always set mine about 0.015” but I too am guilty of just setting up by wiggle test. Only had 1 bearing ever fail and that was on this same car when i first got it going and had only checked the oil in the rear diff. Had no rear brakes but had to take it for a 20 miles test drive. By the time I got home that bearing was toast.
I wonder what the expansion rate is for each inch of axle length is? Where's Bob when ya need him @RJRENTON lol
 
I wonder what the expansion rate is for each inch of axle length is? Where's Bob when ya need him @RJRENTON lol
The biggest factor is: The axle's alloy, such as a chrome-molly steel....Stock axles are typically made of medium-carbon 1039, 1050, or 1055 alloys, and in some cases 1541 series steel that is forged and heat-treated or hardened.
What is the difference between 4140 and 4340 axle shafts?
However, 4340 has more carbon, while 4140 has more chromium. One of the most significant differences between the two metals is the inclusion of nickel in 4340 steel, which accounts for the metal's greater strength and fracture toughness.
Typically, steel is rated by the SAE or the ASM according to its particular elements. Proven and standardized “recipes” are issued a four-digit number. The first two signify the steel group, i.e. carbon steel, nickel-chromium-molybdenum steel, etc. The second two indicate the carbon content in hundredths of a percent, which is variable according to end use.

10XX, 11XX, 12XX, 15XX = The carbon steel group. Most standard OEM axles are 1040 grade. OEM axles are generally heat treated to 40 Rockwell in the center with the outer layer at 55-60 Rockwell to a depth of about .180 inch. These grades all carry from 1.00-1.65% manganese. The industry differentiates these steels by their carbon content, i.e., “low carbon” and “high carbon” steels. The last two digits “XX” indicate the carbon content of the steel. A “30” indicates 3% carbon, “40” indicates 4% carbon, and so on.

13XX = This manganese steel group contains 1.45-2.05% manganese. If it contains 1.6-2.05% manganese, it can be called an alloy steel. This grade is used by aftermarket axle builders because the high manganese content allows for more flexibility during the heat treating process. Some 15XX steels have 1.6-2.05% manganese.

41XX, 43XX, 47XX, 86XX = The nickel chromium-molybdenum group. An alloy containing .65-.95% chromium, .2-.3% molybdenum and 1.55-2.0% nickel. Chromium increases hardness and the elastic limits (when the material is quenched), as well as increasing corrosion resistance. Molybdenum and nickel also increase hardness.
The other influencing factor is temperature. The material will grow, lengthwise, but also on the diameter to a lesser extent. This is called Coefficient of Linear Expansion. Not knowing the axle 's alloy, its length and the max temperature involved, one could ASSUME an overall length growth of say, 0.003" - 0.005", which would be handled by the 0.008" suggested by the FSM for the Timken tapered bearing installation. Where as with the other brand of axle bearings, 0.005" preload will likely cause a bearing failure over time, plus the normal axial loads imposed due to cornering forces.
Not sure if this answers your question.....
BOB RENTON
 
The biggest factor is: The axle's alloy, such as a chrome-molly steel....Stock axles are typically made of medium-carbon 1039, 1050, or 1055 alloys, and in some cases 1541 series steel that is forged and heat-treated or hardened.
What is the difference between 4140 and 4340 axle shafts?
However, 4340 has more carbon, while 4140 has more chromium. One of the most significant differences between the two metals is the inclusion of nickel in 4340 steel, which accounts for the metal's greater strength and fracture toughness.
Typically, steel is rated by the SAE or the ASM according to its particular elements. Proven and standardized “recipes” are issued a four-digit number. The first two signify the steel group, i.e. carbon steel, nickel-chromium-molybdenum steel, etc. The second two indicate the carbon content in hundredths of a percent, which is variable according to end use.

10XX, 11XX, 12XX, 15XX = The carbon steel group. Most standard OEM axles are 1040 grade. OEM axles are generally heat treated to 40 Rockwell in the center with the outer layer at 55-60 Rockwell to a depth of about .180 inch. These grades all carry from 1.00-1.65% manganese. The industry differentiates these steels by their carbon content, i.e., “low carbon” and “high carbon” steels. The last two digits “XX” indicate the carbon content of the steel. A “30” indicates 3% carbon, “40” indicates 4% carbon, and so on.

13XX = This manganese steel group contains 1.45-2.05% manganese. If it contains 1.6-2.05% manganese, it can be called an alloy steel. This grade is used by aftermarket axle builders because the high manganese content allows for more flexibility during the heat treating process. Some 15XX steels have 1.6-2.05% manganese.

41XX, 43XX, 47XX, 86XX = The nickel chromium-molybdenum group. An alloy containing .65-.95% chromium, .2-.3% molybdenum and 1.55-2.0% nickel. Chromium increases hardness and the elastic limits (when the material is quenched), as well as increasing corrosion resistance. Molybdenum and nickel also increase hardness.
The other influencing factor is temperature. The material will grow, lengthwise, but also on the diameter to a lesser extent. This is called Coefficient of Linear Expansion. Not knowing the axle 's alloy, its length and the max temperature involved, one could ASSUME an overall length growth of say, 0.003" - 0.005", which would be handled by the 0.008" suggested by the FSM for the Timken tapered bearing installation. Where as with the other brand of axle bearings, 0.005" preload will likely cause a bearing failure over time, plus the normal axial loads imposed due to cornering forces.
Not sure if this answers your question.....
BOB RENTON
I figured you were going to come up with all the alloys and hardnesses etc etc etc. I know all that stuff makes a difference but what about stock axles?? Are you saying you have no idea what the stockers are alloyed with and how they were quenched?? C'mon man lol. As a journeyman machinist, I needed to at least know some of that mess :D
 
I figured you were going to come up with all the alloys and hardnesses etc etc etc. I know all that stuff makes a difference but what about stock axles?? Are you saying you have no idea what the stockers are alloyed with and how they were quenched?? C'mon man lol. As a journeyman machinist, I needed to at least know some of that mess :D
I'll just have to defer to the manufacturer, application, specifics, hardness, alloy, torque being transmitted (torsional moment), bending moment, overhung load, spline configuration, end bearing configuration ....there just too many to list. There is not just one universal alloy or one size fits all.....sorry.....
BOB RENTON
 
I'll just have to defer to the manufacturer, application, specifics, hardness, alloy, torque being transmitted (torsional moment), bending moment, overhung load, spline configuration, end bearing configuration ....there just too many to list. There is not just one universal alloy or one size fits all.....sorry.....
BOB RENTON
As for the alloy of factory stock axles......I wouldn't think ChryCo deviated all that much. After all, they were the 'little' guys of the big 3 but wanted their stuff to hold up and ChryCo was known to over engineer a bit on their stuff. C'mon man, don't be a cop out :rofl:
 
If your factory tapered bearings are leaking out the outer seals, it could be that the grease you are using is not the correct type. I believe that Lucas xtra heavy duty has similar “no fling” properties as the original mopar special grease. A lot of modern wheel bearing greases will work their way right past the outer seals and grease your brakes nicely. The tapered bearings will last forever if you keep them adjusted and regreased every 50k-60k miles. They’ll for sure die around 75k miles with no maintenance. If I recall correctly, Chryslers “direct connection “ program recommended green bearings for drag race only back in the day for the reasons everyone is pointing out.
 
You all should stop driving your late model pickup trucks!
Which have way bigger ( thus higher capacity) bearings. They were engineered to use that style bearing. Our early mopars were not.
 
How many times have you seen, or heard of, a car having a rear wheel and axle come out. It happened twice to people I knew when I was a kid in high school, and we would beat on our old early 60's "hot rods". And how many times have you seen pictures or video of cars loosing axles or wheels at the staging lights at drag strips? Seems like it's usually GM vehicles.....
I agree! Just blow up the spiders on ANY Chevy 10 or 12 bolt car axle and tell me how fun the ride is. I took a ride into two lanes of oncoming traffic when the spiders blew in my friends 66 396 chevelle. Wasted the left wheel lip when the tire came out with the axle. Spun 180 and parked perfectly at the curb of the oncoming lanes. There’s a reason why NHRA c-clip eliminators are required in faster classes!
 
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