A case for single stage acrylic enamel

[Bladecutter]

This 62 Stud Hawk was painted 35 years ago in ppg delstar acrylic enamel. It has sat outside on stands in the desert for @ least the last 10 years very unattended. btw, it is a complete turn key car.
The paint has let go some on the pot metal grille pieces, otherwise it is not checked & even still shows some gloss, it is not chalked out from oxidation. This little spot on the deck lid i just hand rubbed real quick w/ a mild compound. 2 quick applications. The gloss is coming back with not a ton of effort. I know with some color sanding with just 1500 & rubbing with wheel i could get this bastard as wet as it came out of the can.
I defy one to show me a clear that will last this long under the conditions i described. This was never a garage car, was driven & exposed to elements under average conditions until it was put on stands 10 plus years ago.
Now if it was a metalic, of course the metalics would be dust, but it would still buff. That question would be whether there was enough paint on it to not disrupt the metalic layout during sanding & rubbing & end up with mottle. The only reason clear was designed & put into use on new cars toward the end of the sixties was to protect the metalics since
they are what oxidize before the pigment does. Then the factories started to clear opaques as well in the 80's simply because it cut production costs. There is NO clear that will last this long under harsh conditions.
Unfortunately ppg discontinued delstar last year, but dupont is still making single stage centari acrylic enamel in limited colors.
I'm checking w/ sherwin williams next to see if they still mfg akrlyd single stage acrylic enamel.
The bitch is in california, acrylic enamel as well as lacquer are illegal in automotive.
When it comes time to paint my car(black), i'm going out of state to buy my materials.
Clear is a much added expense, something else to **** up in application & it wont hold out near as long. If one isn't going with a metalic color, there is no good reason to go two/three stage. Throwing a bunch of extra money @ something isn't always the best route.

 

[Matthew Maloney]

Nope there isnt except for it being a little cheaper. I am a firm believer in single stage paint unless its a metallic finish. Then its easier to shoot those without mottling and then clear, plus its easier to mlend and fade in metallics during collision repair.

I plan on shooting my 67 barracuda in single stage 1967 sunfire yellow over white primer to help make it "pop".

I plan on buying just enough to jamb it out and do the undercarriage, engine compartment, and in the trunk. Prob need 1.5 gallons. When i get to doing the exterior i plan on using single stage prob 2 gallons. With this i can shoot 1 panel at a time providing i stir and shake it up well enough that i mix the pigments back in. You cant do that with metallics.

Better to shoot all the exterior the same time with metallics or good luck getting it to match.

The added plus is minor scratches can be color sanded on single stage if theres enough thickness left. On clearcoat once your thru the clearcoat in a scratch your done.

 

[Bladecutter]

Nope there isnt except for it being a little cheaper. I am a firm believer in single stage paint unless its a metallic finish. Then its easier to shoot those without mottling and then clear, plus its easier to mlend and fade in metallics during collision repair.

I plan on shooting my 67 barracuda in single stage 1967 sunfire yellow over white primer to help make it "pop".

I plan on buying just enough to jamb it out and do the undercarriage, engine compartment, and in the trunk. Prob need 1.5 gallons. When i get to doing the exterior i plan on using single stage prob 2 gallons. With this i can shoot 1 panel at a time providing i stir and shake it up well enough that i mix the pigments back in. You cant do that with metallics.

Better to shoot all the exterior the same time with metallics or good luck getting it to match.

The added plus is minor scratches can be color sanded on single stage if theres enough thickness left. On clearcoat once your thru the clearcoat in a scratch your done.

Yes, single stage opaque butt matches far easier than metalics(very fine crush metalics not too much problem) my bible is the 4 main variables which intertwine, one being dependent on the others. Temperature, Reduction, Air Pressure & Spray Distance.......with those 4 consistent, i don't have much trouble butt matching opaque or metalic. Glasurit is the most painless metalic i've used butt matching & the clear flows nicely.
Peace Matthew, jimi

 

[oldbee]

So blade my question is for a first repaint, my body guy said red w/clearcoat; "easier to fix dings and such"(?). My car is going in for first repaint late Sept. I've seen a black GTX he did & looks good. 68Bee garaged all the time. Thanks for you opinion. Jeff

 

[Matthew Maloney]

Solid red or metallic? If solid red id pay extra for the single stage but thats just me.

 

[oldbee]

Solid red like OEM. The better-half (& me) like the color. She is adamant she won't ride in it w/o a repaint!(?)

 

[Bladecutter]

So blade my question is for a first repaint, my body guy said red w/clearcoat; "easier to fix dings and such"(?). My car is going in for first repaint late Sept. I've seen a black GTX he did & looks good. 68Bee garaged all the time. Thanks for you opinion. Jeff

Garaged always, driven moderately.
Red is the most expensive of colors....if it's metalic, more expensive.....if two stage, You are looking in neighborhood of <80.00> a quart(rough ball park). Then the reducer for the basecoat and depending on brand & system, it may be catalyzed basecoat. Then You got clear, reducer, & catalyst. It gets pricey quick. The GTO i worked on in 13 & 14, the owner priced a red 2 stage system(ended up going anthracite), i don't know what brand & whether it was metalic or solid, but after all the materials between base & clear were added up(california), it was 2500.00...in 2013.
I have to agree that a repair works easier w 2 stage. Repair the area, blend in the base coat, then clear the whole panel. Then the blend line can't be broken from repeated washing and drying(drying, toweling is friction & takes a minute toll each time) Also if there is a slight difference in tone of color, You can fake the eyes out with a blend in the panel. Same holds true for a difference in crush of metalics. If the repair area ends up at edge of panel, then the blend must be carried over onto the adjacent panel & then both panels must be recleared overall.
In the case of single stage, some colors(solid) can be butt matched so the whole panel can be repainted. Black is about the easiest butt match there is. But red not so much. Not only the most expensive, but the quickest to oxidize & the worst for die-back after polishing. Blending single stage is tricky in my bible, retarder has to be used to try to get it to melt in to hide the blend line. It's a fine line because retarder is hot & penetrates hard & can penetrate too deep & cause lifting, swelling, shrinkage, shattering etc. And still if all works out, there will be something of an exposed blend line that will eventually begin to wear.
Confused? You won't be after the the next episode of SOAP. Maybe! Sorry, i had to go for some comic relief. "Paintin Place" is deffo a soap opera. Now i gotta commit myself to an answer. You know i don't like clear much. Some clears are milky, kinda like an oil slick on water, filmy. PPG has a non production clear that is not supposed to have this filminess. A couple clears i know of that are Clear is Glasurit, German material that is VERY expensive & a production clear i worked with a lot @ Santini's, TransStar(which had nice sanding & buffing properties also)
So if Your car isn't going to see the elements for prolonged periods a couple days a week, i'd tell You base/clear i guess. Base/Clear is going to more expensive because there is more components. More labor to apply. More to go wrong in application, less durable IMO. In favor of base/clear with waterborne basecoat, the colors are more vibrant, BUT everything has to be sanded to a minimum of 1000, sometimes 2000, depending on brand & system, which makes me suspicious of how good is adhesion. I've seen stuff let go of 400. I have no experience with the water base colors but i deffo see the difference in vibrance of color.
So i guess my recommendation is base/clear or metalic ground coat, translucent toner & clear. A lot of new cars are 3 stage....of course the price goes up, more labor to apply, more stuff that can belly up in application.
Single stage is going to be cheapest & easiest to apply. Less labor, less money.
Whichever route You go, make extra COLOR in the event You have to repair at a later date...i mean i would keep at least a couple quarts of SAME mix. Also have painter record at time of shoot the temperature, humidity, reduction of color mix, air pressure & distance shot with, especially with metalics!
Like i say, it's a soap, i've bitten myself in the *** too many times over 45 years, but the mistakes are what i learn from the most, keep me cautious & without a cavalier attitude. I'm trying wade back out of a mess i've got going with the black t-bird right now.
The aluminum is sooo much more predictable finish wise.
Hope this helps Jeff. jimi
If You didn't see this before when i posted, it's 27 year old ppg delstar single stage that i color sanded & buffed...was like block sanding on a cinder block, but it came out pretty doggone flat & wet. Doesn't even have any final glaze on it yet.

 

[khryslerkid]

On the Study, have you ever tried Maguire #9 swirl remover? I did a lot of detail work for some extra bucks, also a lot of final clear coat over artwork. I use a Dewalt variable speed buffer with a red foam pad for the cutting, then switch to the yellow foam pad with Maguire #6 cleaner wax. Flawless finish with minimal work. A good trick is to never buff dry, leave a little bit of film and buff that off by hand.

More pics of the Hawk! I'd love to have one of those. V8?

 

[eldubb440]

my first job was at a custom van place, brand new vans.........had to go 2 tone, sometimes 3 tone.......we did everything Centari......... black, white, silvers, golds, and everything in between........ we used to flow out some real nice centari jobs, 2 per day, every day.............it was a cool job for a 19 year old,

in my opinion, Nothing looks better fresh out of the booth than acrylic enamel, and it holds up if the body work is right......... I want to pull off a near perfect "factory" metallic enamel job on something..... I'm sick of buffing, and it's more correct for these old cars...... I was experimenting with my GTX fenders, I havent shot a metallic AE overall in 30 years but I can do this!

the trick with the metallic colors, is putting the early coats down wet, and keeping it wet, then you can dust the metallic even at the end, and it melts in.........

 

[eldubb440]

I had to get paint on the edges and in the buckets anyway, so I shot em single stage, and I like it!........ the factory look is cool! I'm sick of the glass look

 

[khryslerkid]

I had to get paint on the edges and in the buckets anyway, so I shot em single stage, and I like it!........ the factory look is cool! I'm sick of the glass look

View attachment 504704

Single stage is what came on them. That's normally what looks correct. I've seen bccc on a lot of classic cars and on some it looks ok. Sometimes I think it's the color that makes the difference.

I remember a 1972 Challenger, Petty Blue and that car looked wet with the clear coat that was on it. Beautiful car, beautiful paint job but it didn't look right on that car at all. To each his own but you have to draw the line on some things.

 

[Bladecutter]

On the Study, have you ever tried Maguire #9 swirl remover? I did a lot of detail work for some extra bucks, also a lot of final clear coat over artwork. I use a Dewalt variable speed buffer with a red foam pad for the cutting, then switch to the yellow foam pad with Maguire #6 cleaner wax. Flawless finish with minimal work. A good trick is to never buff dry, leave a little bit of film and buff that off by hand.

More pics of the Hawk! I'd love to have one of those. V8?

I haven't used #9 but i've used a lot of #7, Suh-low rotation with fine foam wheel. KK, i was cutting my own foam pads in 70's before MG or anyone else marketed them, most people were still filling up wool wheel marks with MG #7 or 3M Imperial hand glaze. The foam pad glaze i use since 1990 on fresh paint is the Black 3M for dark colors, doesn't wash out as fast as #7, but for cured finishes, for a final i use Nu Finish by machine & hand.
Or some other polymer teflon type sealant. Deffo with You on variable speed/trigger. Cutting with wool i never turn faster than a 1000 rpm, usually keep around 500rpm, do not heat surface. Less friction , wheel marks not as deep & easier to foam out. Water seeks its own level & we all find what we are comfortable with.....refinish game there are a million ways to skin the cat. I've been in & out of a lot of shops over the years since 75, not so much for a living since 2005.
Heavy collision is the area i'm not real practiced at & my sheet welding is passable, adequate penetration. I've done lead(wouldn't waste my time with it on my own stuff), i'm a pretty decent metal finisher, god damb good at blocking, surface tuning & contracted in many shops, production & custom, cutting & polishing fresh finishes. jimi buff-it was a handle since the 80's in Az & followed me to Ca. when i came out in 92. Santini in Westminster, who has a pretty good name in customs, does SEMA projects for Ford & GM, got me published in 97 in a magazine called Auto Graphics(now defunct)as jimi buff-it. The cut & polish is my forte'. Still break em now & then...color sanding something FLAT is always risky.......the d/a is better than hand blocking but really dangerous at edges, tight areas, reverse curves etc. I'm miserying with this black t bird right now, have broken a couple panels sanding, causing some refinish on a job that was at best a quick & dirty before i started on it....win some lose some, but i guarantee You that in the flesh the panels i've buffed, that black single stage is as wet as any massaged clear. Day comes i shoot my bug, it will be single stage because it wont be metaliced or graphiced & i may break some panels doing it, thank the Lord black is an easy butt match, but it will be straight, wet & flat. Hell i really want to do it in nitrocellulose lacquer because that's as black & as flat as it can get. The car isnt being built for anything except fair weather anyway & not constant exposure to elements so a hard finish is acceptable to me as opposed to paint that stays rubbery underneath. Then i can really get rid of the movement, puddliness. Will it be perfect, not even. I've ner done perfect & i ner seen perfect. Perfect is a concept to struggle to achieve & perfect varys person to person. It's only in the individual beholder's eye what perfect is.
We have two Hawks here, both 289's. The turn key 62, auto with girling front discs & a 63, all drum & a borg warner 4 speed....a survivor, orig paint(dead) & accident free. There's so much **** going on here, anybody's guess what will get done when(this is all hobby, not trying to make a living)but the 63 is getting some attention at least. I'll take some pix of both tomorrow & post them on this thread. cia acid.....

 

[Bladecutter]

my first job was at a custom van place, brand new vans.........had to go 2 tone, sometimes 3 tone.......we did everything Centari......... black, white, silvers, golds, and everything in between........ we used to flow out some real nice centari jobs, 2 per day, every day.............it was a cool job for a 19 year old,

in my opinion, Nothing looks better fresh out of the booth than acrylic enamel, and it holds up if the body work is right......... I want to pull off a near perfect "factory" metallic enamel job on something..... I'm sick of buffing, and it's more correct for these old cars...... I was experimenting with my GTX fenders, I havent shot a metallic AE overall in 30 years but I can do this!

the trick with the metallic colors, is putting the early coats down wet, and keeping it wet, then you can dust the metallic even at the end, and it melts in.........

Right on 'Dub. You probably have a lot more experience shooting than self......i never did it on a daily basis,,,body work, color sanding & polishing i did do daily. But i've done enough metalic shoots to know Your last paragraph by verse.
Me, i would shoot @ dark thirty in the morning, after traffic & bugs had died down & after the tack coat, shoot in dead air with fan off, with the paint nice n hot w/ slow reducer until i couldn't see, so car was enveloped in cloud of hot overspray, then when refilling cup, turn fan on to exhaust overspray, then repeat process until done. When done, i shut the fan off & opened all the doors & stuck a window fan in front of exhaust filters pulling just enough air across car to avoid reducer burn(in the case of single stage & clear). Whether it was single stage or basecoat, the metalic layouts were ace. On single stage metalics i could do some sanding & polishing without disrupting the metalic layout.

 

[Bladecutter]

I had to get paint on the edges and in the buckets anyway, so I shot em single stage, and I like it!........ the factory look is cool! I'm sick of the glass look

View attachment 504704

Cool Beans!

 

[slimt]

So blade my question is for a first repaint, my body guy said red w/clearcoat; "easier to fix dings and such"(?). My car is going in for first repaint late Sept. I've seen a black GTX he did & looks good. 68Bee garaged all the time. Thanks for you opinion. Jeff

try using the ppg transparent water base crap.. the value shade sealer is recommended on all colors as the colors are all see through.. Ive been using it for sometime now.. not all as good as we might think.. it getting worse with the 4 stage colors coming out..

 

[slimt]

Im in amongst some painters.. right where I belong.. I didnt mind centari.. had to be very careful thought on the type of prepping to make it stick without it being able to peel off.. finals sands to primer dry times..

 

[khryslerkid]

I haven't used #9 but i've used a lot of #7, Suh-low rotation with fine foam wheel. KK, i was cutting my own foam pads in 70's before MG or anyone else marketed them, most people were still filling up wool wheel marks with MG #7 or 3M Imperial hand glaze. The foam pad glaze i use since 1990 on fresh paint is the Black 3M for dark colors, doesn't wash out as fast as #7, but for cured finishes, for a final i use Nu Finish by machine & hand.
Or some other polymer teflon type sealant. Deffo with You on variable speed/trigger. Cutting with wool i never turn faster than a 1000 rpm, usually keep around 500rpm, do not heat surface. Less friction , wheel marks not as deep & easier to foam out. Water seeks its own level & we all find what we are comfortable with.....refinish game there are a million ways to skin the cat. I've been in & out of a lot of shops over the years since 75, not so much for a living since 2005.
Heavy collision is the area i'm not real practiced at & my sheet welding is passable, adequate penetration. I've done lead(wouldn't waste my time with it on my own stuff), i'm a pretty decent metal finisher, god damb good at blocking, surface tuning & contracted in many shops, production & custom, cutting & polishing fresh finishes. jimi buff-it was a handle since the 80's in Az & followed me to Ca. when i came out in 92. Santini in Westminster, who has a pretty good name in customs, does SEMA projects for Ford & GM, got me published in 97 in a magazine called Auto Graphics(now defunct)as jimi buff-it. The cut & polish is my forte'. Still break em now & then...color sanding something FLAT is always risky.......the d/a is better than hand blocking but really dangerous at edges, tight areas, reverse curves etc. I'm miserying with this black t bird right now, have broken a couple panels sanding, causing some refinish on a job that was at best a quick & dirty before i started on it....win some lose some, but i guarantee You that in the flesh the panels i've buffed, that black single stage is as wet as any massaged clear. Day comes i shoot my bug, it will be single stage because it wont be metaliced or graphiced & i may break some panels doing it, thank the Lord black is an easy butt match, but it will be straight, wet & flat. Hell i really want to do it in nitrocellulose lacquer because that's as black & as flat as it can get. The car isnt being built for anything except fair weather anyway & not constant exposure to elements so a hard finish is acceptable to me as opposed to paint that stays rubbery underneath. Then i can really get rid of the movement, puddliness. Will it be perfect, not even. I've ner done perfect & i ner seen perfect. Perfect is a concept to struggle to achieve & perfect varys person to person. It's only in the individual beholder's eye what perfect is.
We have two Hawks here, both 289's. The turn key 62, auto with girling front discs & a 63, all drum & a borg warner 4 speed....a survivor, orig paint(dead) & accident free. There's so much **** going on here, anybody's guess what will get done when(this is all hobby, not trying to make a living)but the 63 is getting some attention at least. I'll take some pix of both tomorrow & post them on this thread. cia acid.....

Jimi Buff It, I like that! And I like your resume.

I had to learn quick about buffing. My son and I opened a custom art shop, clearing over his artwork and making sure it was right. The customers would be admiring his art for about five minutes then notice the finish. That's what you wanted. Multiple layers of art, useing innercoat clear when the windows got close, flat sanding without disturbing the art, then applying more clear for the final making sure you had enough to do the sanding and buffing. You figure out what works and what doesn't really quick. I would do all of his "bitch" work and let him concentrate on his art. Fun stuff!

One of my favs

 

[Bladecutter]

Jimi Buff It, I like that! And I like your resume.

I had to learn quick about buffing. My son and I opened a custom art shop, clearing over his artwork and making sure it was right. The customers would be admiring his art for about five minutes then notice the finish. That's what you wanted. Multiple layers of art, useing innercoat clear when the windows got close, flat sanding without disturbing the art, then applying more clear for the final making sure you had enough to do the sanding and buffing. You figure out what works and what doesn't really quick. I would do all of his "bitch" work and let him concentrate on his art. Fun stuff!

One of my favs
View attachment 504826

I remember seeing this posted elsewhere a while ago,,,,very pretty scheme. Yeah, working over graphix is a tennuous bitch trying to flatten & bury all the edges without breaking the clear. What, no hazard pay?!
In my ramblings i don't mean to come off cocky, like i know all about how something should be done...not even close to that wisdom....but i have learned a bit about what not to do @ expense & a shattered ego.

 

[Bladecutter]

try using the ppg transparent water base crap.. the value shade sealer is recommended on all colors as the colors are all see through.. Ive been using it for sometime now.. not all as good as we might think.. it getting worse with the 4 stage colors coming out..

Yikes, 4 stage? Sounds scary, scary
slimt.

 

[khryslerkid]

I remember seeing this posted elsewhere a while ago,,,,very pretty scheme. Yeah, working over graphix is a tennuous bitch trying to flatten & bury all the edges without breaking the clear. What, no hazard pay?!
In my ramblings i don't mean to come off cocky, like i know all about how something should be done...not even close to that wisdom....but i have learned a bit about what not to do @ expense & a shattered ego.

Yes, I've posted it before, bragging about the sons work! "That's my Son"!

You're not coming off cocky when you're sharing your knowledge and experience.