After Alignment Help!

[mrmolding]

Finally took my 70 Runner to a local alignment shop yesterday. This place has a very good local reputation and was even recommended by a few custom shops out here.
Background — I redid the front end in my garage with a kit from DrDiff and also upgraded to power steering because my shoulder is shot. I used all oem parts for power unit and shaft.
I’d actually held off getting it aligned until I got rid of the shakedown issues. The car ran and drove so well I almost didn’t bother getting it aligned.
So, after the alignment it noticed the steering wheel is off center about 5 degrees to the left. Ugh! The tech told me that they would fix it no problem but I have two weeks to take it back.
So after lots of reading I decided I’d adjust myself but then realized that the right tie rod is 9 3/4 inches and the left is 9 1/4. But isn’t that the opposite to move the wheel to center? Shouldn’t the wheel be to the right off center if the right tie rod is longer? Coming up to speed on this but figured I’d share the alignment report as well. Seems like the caster is correct and possibly camber but toe is zero? Did they leave toe alone because front end is new?
Thanks in advance!!!

 

[Rebelrouser]

I taught automotive technology for 26 years. First thing I would be worried about is the rear toe on a rigid axle of 1 degree, something is bent. And maybe the cause of your crooked steering wheel. The other issue is those are not specs for 70 roadrunner, 1/16 to 1/8 toe in in inches, from my memory, they did not use degrees back in the 70's for toe. And yes you are right zero degrees or inches is not correct. The other issue I see is that you put more camber and less caster on the left wheel so that the suspension will pull slightly against road crown, they have more camber on the left which is OK, I would have biased the caster a little more. I did 1/2 degree bias. My students all wanted to say a car was properly aligned when the numbers on the computer screen turned green. That meant it was close not right. I see this in most alignment shops today with computer bases equipment.
bottom line is your tires most likely will not wear with this setup, but it could drive a little better if right. When I align a car if I cannot let go of the steering wheel on a straight stretch of road for several hundred feet and it not drift, I did not do my job right.

 

[mrmolding]

I taught automotive technology for 26 years. First thing I would be worried about is the rear toe on a rigid axle of 1 degree, something is bent. And maybe the cause of your crooked steering wheel. The other issue is those are not specs for 70 roadrunner, 1/16 to 1/8 toe in in inches, from my memory, they did not use degrees back in the 70's for toe. And yes you are right zero degrees or inches is not correct. The other issue I see is that you put more camber and less caster on the left wheel so that the suspension will pull slightly against road crown, they have more camber on the left which is OK, I would have biased the caster a little more. I did 1/2 degree bias. My students all wanted to say a car was properly aligned when the numbers on the computer screen turned green. That meant it was close not right. I see this in most alignment shops today with computer bases equipment.
bottom line is your tires most likely will not wear with this setup, but it could drive a little better if right. When I align a car if I cannot let go of the steering wheel on a straight stretch of road for several hundred feet and it not drift, I did not do my job right.

Thanks!!! In regard to the rear toe, he did not put the wheel assemblies on the rear wheels, just the front. Wondering how that was read or are the values read another way.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Stock steering box? Or a Borgeson? Pretty common problem with the Borgeson, less common with the stock box but it can happen.

The Borgeson often needs to be shimmed at the mounting pads to clock the pitman arm so the tie rods are close to equal... That usually happens because the splines on the pitman shaft aren't clocked quite right.... But it can also be because the mount of the K member is off a little... Doesn't take much..

Looks like they left a lot of caster on the table... But you still have enough that it should drive well...

I agree the rear toe could be a concern assuming they actually threw the heads on the rear of the car... I've seen plenty of shops where they aren't used on a RWD vehicle...

Just saw your post.. There ya go...

 

[mrmolding]

Stock steering box? Or a Borgeson? Pretty common problem with the Borgeson, less common with the stock box but it can happen.

The Borgeson often needs to be shimmed at the mounting pads to clock the pitman arm so the tie rods are close to equal... That usually happens because the splines on the pitman shaft aren't clocked quite right.... But it can also be because the mount of the K member is off a little... Doesn't take much..

Looks like they left a lot of caster on the table... But you still have enough that it should drive well...

I agree the rear toe could be a concern assuming they actually threw the heads on the rear of the car... I've seen plenty of shops where they aren't used on a RWD vehicle...

Just saw your post.. There ya go...

Stock rebuilt by Lares. They did not put the alignment heads? on the back of the car. I guess the rear values aren't valid in the report. Makes sense!

So are the toe values valid? Do they need the rear wheels to be hooked up so the rear can be compared to the front?

Thanks as always!

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Stock rebuilt by Lares. They did not put the alignment heads? on the back of the car. I guess the rear values aren't valid in the report. Makes sense!

So are the toe values valid? Do they need the rear wheels to be hooked up so the rear can be compared to the front?

Thanks as always!

You should still get a usable toe reading... The zeros are either an error or if they set it to zero, which when driving the forces involved will turn that to toe out at speed & the vehicle will feel "twitchy"

Setting the toe to 1/8" toe in when driving is probably a true zero toe... The slight slack in steering components allows a slight change in dynamic toe vs static toe...

 

[dan juhasz]

That must be an older machine. I work with a Hunter machine that uses digital cameras and targets on all wheels. I don't like the fact that their machine does not print the cars specs on the printout. Your comment on the length of the tie rod means nothing. The one aspect of wheel alignment that is determined by the individual is steering wheel center, and where the mechanic locks the steering wheel at what he perceives is straight ahead. After I'm done with an alignment the last thing I do is another caster sweep and I position the steering wheel to the spot that the machine splits the toe reading as equal. Then i sit in the car look at the steering wheel. If its straight I'm golden if its off I recenter the wheel to straight ahead and adjust the sleeves again. Old cars are the most difficult to get a perfect centered steering wheel. Especially with a oe power steering gear, the straight ahead position on the box has lots of free play that makes finding an acceptable straight ahead a crap shoot.

 

[Rebelrouser]

Thanks!!! In regard to the rear toe, he did not put the wheel assemblies on the rear wheels, just the front. Wondering how that was read or are the values read another way.

View attachment 1492163

If he did not put heads on the rear wheels, pretty hard to get a straight steering wheel, and no the thrust measurements on the rear are not valid. Why would anyone using a machine capable of 4-wheel alignment not use the rear heads?

 

[R413]

Really helps to use the rear sensors to pork off the thrust angle. Then start the engine to get the slop out of the steering box, get it centered and get the steering wheel straight the first time.

zero toe is bad, why would he set it to zero on and older RWD car like this?

 

[WileERobby]

Really good comments ^^. I set my camber at -.5 and my toe-in at 1/8. Getting 2-3 positive caster as you have is fine. ( edit: if you brought your older, classic car in my garage, first thing I would do is check if the steering wheel splines are indexed )

 

[Charles Cook]

Thanks!!! In regard to the rear toe, he did not put the wheel assemblies on the rear wheels, just the front. Wondering how that was read or are the values read another way.

View attachment 1492163

That is a beautiful car.

 

[toolmanmike]

I taught automotive technology for 26 years. First thing I would be worried about is the rear toe on a rigid axle of 1 degree, something is bent. And maybe the cause of your crooked steering wheel. The other issue is those are not specs for 70 roadrunner, 1/16 to 1/8 toe in in inches, from my memory, they did not use degrees back in the 70's for toe. And yes you are right zero degrees or inches is not correct. The other issue I see is that you put more camber and less caster on the left wheel so that the suspension will pull slightly against road crown, they have more camber on the left which is OK, I would have biased the caster a little more. I did 1/2 degree bias. My students all wanted to say a car was properly aligned when the numbers on the computer screen turned green. That meant it was close not right. I see this in most alignment shops today with computer bases equipment.
bottom line is your tires most likely will not wear with this setup, but it could drive a little better if right. When I align a car if I cannot let go of the steering wheel on a straight stretch of road for several hundred feet and it not drift, I did not do my job right.

And if it does drift slightly, I prefer a slight drift to the right. If I fall asleep, driving off the shoulder or into the ditch is usually better than into oncoming traffic. Part of our grade in tech school was for the instructor and 2 others to drive the car down the 2 lane and the person in the back seat would steer the car by setting on one side or the other.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Your comment on the length of the tie rod means nothing.

Generally accepted but not entirely true... Dissimilar tie rod length can cause the wheels to react differently to bumps.... (Bump steer) Ideally you can draw one straight line through the control arm bushings and the inner tie rod and another line through the ball joints and the outer tie rod... A half inch can cause a measurable difference in toe change... Will a driver perceive it? Probably not... Depends on the driver & how refined the rest of the vehicle is... On these cars you probably would bever notice...

 

[mrmolding]

If he did not put heads on the rear wheels, pretty hard to get a straight steering wheel, and no the thrust measurements on the rear are not valid. Why would anyone using a machine capable of 4-wheel alignment not use the rear heads?

Not sure if he was in a rush or not.

 

[Builderguy]

Just some information:

 

[dan juhasz]

Generally accepted but not entirely true... Dissimilar tie rod length can cause the wheels to react differently to bumps.... (Bump steer) Ideally you can draw one straight line through the control arm bushings and the inner tie rod and another line through the ball joints and the outer tie rod... A half inch can cause a measurable difference in toe change... Will a driver perceive it? Probably not... Depends on the driver & how refined the rest of the vehicle is... On these cars you probably would bever notice...

Bump steer is created by having the level of the outer tie rod either sloping too high or too low in reference to the fixed position of the inner. As the suspension goes through its travel bump steer is created by the arc of the outer tie rod if it doesn’t start at near level. There are other factors that can contribute but that is main cause.
Length of the tie rod is of no consequence as long as the sleeve can bring the toe into spec.

 

[mrmolding]

Really helps to use the rear sensors to pork off the thrust angle. Then start the engine to get the slop out of the steering box, get it centered and get the steering wheel straight the first time.

zero toe is bad, why would he set it to zero on and older RWD car like this?

I don't know. I've been scouring the web and some posts say that for a brand new front end it's not required and set it to zero. Wondering if the reading was correct now knowing that the rear numbers are possibly wrong as well. I'm going to stop by and talk to the tech before I take it back. But, does anyone know a decent front end place near Santa Clarita, CA? I could take it back, or just try with some kit in my garage at this point.

 

[mrmolding]

Bump steer is created by having the level of the outer tie rod either sloping too high or too low in reference to the fixed position of the inner. As the suspension goes through its travel bump steer is created by the arc of the outer tie rod if it doesn’t start at near level. There are other factors that can contribute but that is main cause.
Length of the tie rod is of no consequence as long as the sleeve can bring the toe into spec.

Ok. Thanks! So the different lengths of the tie rods do not matter? If so, I might take it back and say please straighten the wheel and give it 1/8 - 1/16 of toe in.
Dumb question, they can adjust toe without the rear mirrors/etc connected to the rear wheels right?

 

[mrmolding]

That is a beautiful car.

Thanks!!! I got it from another member three years ago and it had most body panels replaced and a engine rebuild around 2012-2014. I took it from there and I've literally done everything else I can think of over the past 3 years. Electrical, all brakes and lines, front end, ECS exhaust, interior, carpet, gauges, dash, cooling, new diff, etc. The only that that is original is the frame, floors, and tranny out of a 67 coronet I think with a 440 done long before me. Other than that it's got its build sheet, original engine, fender tag, and all numbers match. But, it's a brand new friggin car at this point but not so perfect that I won't drive it all over the place. But I would LOVE it if the damn wheel was correct. I appreciate everyone's help!!!

 

[mrmolding]

Just some information:
View attachment 1492369
View attachment 1492370

View attachment 1492371

That's awesome! Never seen specs with and without Power Steering. Thanks!