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Butt welding

68sportsatelliteragtop

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I am getting ready to try my hand at butt welding a section in the inner fender under the battery tray. I have cut out the area and fabbed a patch. I need to final trim the patch and need some help with how much gap to leave. Also any tips on welding, other then tack weld and skip around to prevent warpage, like using a piece of copper/ brass behind the seam as a temporary back up material? Thanks for any input, Ken
 
If your new to this get a can of weld heat soak. You can get it at any welding supply. Get a piece of copper and hold on back of weld also if you can not find heat soak. The thinkness of the gap is equal to the thickness of the patch. Use an standard air gun to cool the spot. Just a small tack then move 1 inch away. go around the patch until you have completed this. Look for light thru the welds and continue to fix it. Medium heat and run the wire so it starts poking at the metal usually 1/4 power. Gas shielding produces better welds. Less chance for corrosion.
 
Leave about a 1/32" gap and slightly bevel the edges of both the patch and the original panel. Use a set of vice grips or c-clamp to hold a piece of copper to the back the panel over the seam to be welded. Use a mid range voltage setting and a fairly high wire feed to help reduce burn through and warpage. Also keep the panel cool using cold wet rags between welds. Place a few tacks a couple inches apart on opposite sides to hold the patch in place and cool the panel. Repeat this process until the patch is completely welded. Keep moving the arc side to side between the patch and panel while moving forward up the seam. Only weld about 1/4" at a time to reduce warping.

I hope this helps,
Joe
 
The smaller the gap the better. Otherwise you'll have boogers hanging out the back side. But a 1/16 should be good. Brass, copper, aluminum. None of those will stick and can be used for backers. I weld everyday sometimes 12 hours a day for my job. So I have used all the above and they all work well. All the gap is really for is to get good penetration to both pieces of steel. Use gas. Porosity is a welders biggest enemy(air in the weld). Clean(remove) all the paint, rust so u have a nice weld. DON'T USE BREAK CLEANER as a cleaner. Argon and break cleaner makes a toxic fume that can kill or permanently damage you if breathed in. Hope this helps. Oh and don't go tacking with out a helmet on, ultra violet rays over time cause cancer not to mention your flash burn isn't very pleasant.
 
Whatever you use for backing, make sure it's as pure as can be. If there are any impurities in it, it can and probably will weld to your work.
 
You don't want any gap!
Pieces should fit perfect with NO gap and should be gas welded or Tig welded.
Even if you decide to Mig weld my last choice You don't want any gap.


Beveling on sheet metal edges only invites blow thru but I do do it, and this was Mig welded.
If I had used my Tig I would not have beveled the pieces at all and would have made patch fit better.
And yes back side did have some boogers that had to be ground down.
A little Epoxy on both sides and some color and clear you cant see any thing.

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Best pic I have of it currently
plymouth020-2.jpg
 
Very nice work!

You don't want any gap!
Pieces should fit perfect with NO gap and should be gas welded or Tig welded.
Even if you decide to Mig weld my last choice You don't want any gap.


Beveling on sheet metal edges only invites blow thru but I do do it, and this was Mig welded.
If I had used my Tig I would not have beveled the pieces at all and would have made patch fit better.
And yes back side did have some boogers that had to be ground down.
A little Epoxy on both sides and some color and clear you cant see any thing.

019.gif

020.gif

021.gif

022.gif

023.gif

025.gif

026.gif

037-1.gif


Best pic I have of it currently
plymouth020-2.jpg
 
Like these guys said, the smaller the gap the better. Over 1/16" with a MIG and .025-.030 wire, better look at revamping your patch. Backing is not always necessary and sometimes becomes more of a hassle to try and postion while trying to weld on the opposite side. Not to mention the extra time of securing the backing flat as possible as well as dropping it every so often because it gets pretty dang hot. Without a backer, a 2" 35grit Roloc on a die grinder will make quick work of the penetration cap on the back side it you're worried about that. If you're burning through and have a decent gap, it's not because you don't have a backer...It could be too many amps...holding position too long...improper nozzle position/angle...ect...ect...ect... Backing does work quite well when dealing with through wall plug welding though. TIG makes a more pretty weld, but is not practical with larger patches or welding in large panels, not to mention it takes pricey equipment, and a decent amount of skill over MIG. MIG works just fine and is used by 99% of body shops out there. Just make sure it's not Flux-core.

My advice...1st off, get some scrap 18-20 GA material and practice on it. Practice welding horizontal, vertical and inverted. You'll notice that your wire speed, amps, and nozzle position vary with orientation to the weld. Like mentioned, bevels are not necessary on metal that thin. If you were welding on a 4" Sch40 pipe, then yes a bevel would be advised for proper penetration. Porosity (gas holes) is the weld cap....Turn up the gas, get out of the wind...clean the spatter out of your nozzle...or position your nozzle closer to the weld, is going to be a fix to one of those issues.

I guess a guy could go on and on about tips, tricks and techniques with welding, but we would have a pretty thick book before too long. Just throwing in my tid-bit. Lotta other guys piping in with some good tips and are willing to help. All you need to do now is fire up that welder and strike an arc.

good luck!
 
Thanks...just trying to help.

Glad you brought up the magnets TBone..they work well and are a heck of a lot cheaper than the through panel clamps tha people get soaked on.
 
The smaller the gap the better. Otherwise you'll have boogers hanging out the back side. But a 1/16 should be good. Brass, copper, aluminum. None of those will stick and can be used for backers. I weld everyday sometimes 12 hours a day for my job. So I have used all the above and they all work well. All the gap is really for is to get good penetration to both pieces of steel. Use gas. Porosity is a welders biggest enemy(air in the weld). Clean(remove) all the paint, rust so u have a nice weld. DON'T USE BREAK CLEANER as a cleaner. Argon and break cleaner makes a toxic fume that can kill or permanently damage you if breathed in. Hope this helps. Oh and don't go tacking with out a helmet on, ultra violet rays over time cause cancer not to mention your flash burn isn't very pleasant.

Very interesting info. I have been guilty of using brake cleaner but wait for it to evaporate before striking an arc. I can see how the solvent will decompose due to heat but argon is an inert gas so I don't think that has much to do with the process. Of course I'm no chemist so I will be investigating!
 
Very interesting info. I have been guilty of using brake cleaner but wait for it to evaporate before striking an arc. I can see how the solvent will decompose due to heat but argon is an inert gas so I don't think that has much to do with the process. Of course I'm no chemist so I will be investigating!

It's the trichlorides in the cleaner that gas off when burned. Doesn't need to be wet, either. If the base or filler metal has been cleaned with it, it can be "absorbed" into the metal. (tri-chloro-ethel or something...I'm no chemist either, but just read about it at a welding refresher class)
It put a dude in the hospital, took a few days for the symptoms to get bad enough for him to go to the doc.
Messed him up for a long time. I think he has permenent damage from it.
Wish I could remember the details and where it was published.....
Please use caution and read labels!
 
It's the trichlorides in the cleaner that gas off when burned. Doesn't need to be wet, either. If the base or filler metal has been cleaned with it, it can be "absorbed" into the metal. (tri-chloro-ethel or something...I'm no chemist either, but just read about it at a welding refresher class)
It put a dude in the hospital, took a few days for the symptoms to get bad enough for him to go to the doc.
Messed him up for a long time. I think he has permenent damage from it.
Wish I could remember the details and where it was published.....
Please use caution and read labels!

Yeah I actually heard about that on tv. But it resonated with me. I used to use brake parts cleaner allot to clean stuff. I don't know for sure the full extent of what it does to your body. But its enough make me stay clear of the idea of welding over something thats been cleaned with the stuff. After welding galvanized metal at work, my lungs aren't the greatest. Be wise and protect yourself people. Great tips in this thread:headbang:
 
Trichloroethylene
79-01-6
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Hazard Summary-Created in April 1992; Revised in January 2000
Most of the trichloroethylene used in the United States is released into the atmosphere from industrial degreasing operations. Acute (short-term) and chronic (long-term) inhalation exposure to trichloroethylene can affect the human central nervous system (CNS), with symptoms such as dizziness, headaches, confusion, euphoria, facial numbness, and weakness. Liver, kidney, immunological, endocrine, and developmental effects have also been reported in humans. A recent analysis of available epidemiological studies reports trichloroethylene exposure to be associated with several types of cancers in humans, especially kidney, liver, cervix, and lymphatic system. Animal studies have reported increases in lung, liver, kidney, and testicular tumors and lymphoma. The Agency is currently reassessing the cancer classification of trichloroethylene.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please Note: The main source of information for this fact sheet is the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry's (ATSDR's) Toxicological Profile for Trichloroethylene. Another secondary source used is EPA's Health Assessment Document for Trichloroethylene.

Uses
The main use of trichloroethylene is in the vapor degreasing of metal parts. (1)
Trichloroethylene is also used as an extraction solvent for greases, oils, fats, waxes, and tars, a chemical intermediate in the production of other chemicals, and as a refrigerant. (1)
Trichloroethylene is used in consumer products such as typewriter correction fluids, paint removers/strippers, adhesives, spot removers, and rug-cleaning fluids. (1)
Trichloroethylene was used in the past as a general anesthetic. (1)
Sources and Potential Exposure
Trichloroethylene has been detected in ambient air at levels less than 1 part per billion (ppb). Ambient air measurement data from the Aerometric Information Retrieval System (which has 1,200 measurements from 25 states from 1985-1995) give a range of ambient air values from 0.01 to 3.9 micrograms per cubic meter (µg/m3). (1,13)
Because of its moderate water solubility, trichloroethylene in soil has the potential to migrate into groundwater. The relatively frequent detection of trichloroethylene in groundwater confirms its mobility in soils. (13)
Drinking water supplies relying on contaminated groundwater sources may contain trichloroethylene. ATSDR reports that trichloroethylene is the most frequently reported organic contaminant in groundwater. It estimates between 9 and 34 percent of drinking water supply sources have some trichloroethylene contamination but that most municipal water supplies are in compliance with the maximum contaminant level of 5 µg/L. (1,13)
Workers may be exposed to trichloroethylene in the factories where it is manufactured or used. In addition, persons breathing air around these factories may be exposed to trichloroethylene. (1)
Persons may also be exposed to trichloroethylene through the use of products containing the chemical and from evaporation and leaching from waste disposal sites. (1)
Assessing Personal Exposure
Trichloroethylene can be measured in the breath, and breakdown products of trichloroethylene can be measured in urine or blood. (1)
Health Hazard Information
Acute Effects:
Central nervous system effects are the primary effects noted from acute inhalation exposure to trichloroethylene in humans, with symptoms including sleepiness, fatigue, headache, confusion, and feelings of euphoria. Effects on the liver, kidneys, gastrointestinal system, and skin have also been noted. (1)
Neurological, lung, kidney, and heart effects have been reported in animals acutely exposed to trichloroethylene. (1)
Tests involving acute exposure of rats and mice have shown trichloroethylene to have low toxicity from inhalation exposure and moderate toxicity from oral exposure. (1,2)
Chronic Effects (Noncancer):
As with acute exposure, chronic exposure to trichloroethylene by inhalation also affects the human central nervous system. Case reports of intermediate and chronic occupational exposures included effects such as dizziness, headache, sleepiness, nausea, confusion, blurred vision, facial numbness, and weakness. (1)
Effects to the liver, kidneys, and immune and endocrine systems have also been seen in humans exposed to trichloroethylene occupationally or from contaminanted drinking water. (13)
Studies have shown that simultaneous alcohol consumption and trichloroethylene inhalation increases the toxicity of trichloroethylene in humans. (1)
Neurological, liver, and kidney effects were reported in chronically-exposed animals. (1)
EPA is in the process of calculating a Reference Concentration (RfC) and Reference Dose (RfD) for trichloroethylene.
ATSDR has calculated an intermediate-duration inhalation minimal risk level (MRL) of 0.1 parts per million (ppm) (0.5 milligrams per cubic meter, mg/m3) for trichloroethylene based on neurological effects in rats. The MRL is an estimate of the daily human exposure to a hazardous substance that is likely to be without appreciable risk of adverse noncancer health effects over a specified duration of exposure. Exposure to a level above the MRL does not mean that adverse health effects will occur. The MRL is intended to serve as a screening tool. (1)
The California Environmental Protection Agency (CalEPA) has calculated a chronic inhalation reference exposure level of 0.6 mg/m3 based on neurological effects in humans. The CalEPA reference exposure level is a concentration at or below which adverse health effects are not likely to occur. (5)
Reproductive/Developmental Effects:
A study of nurses occupationally exposed by inhalation to trichloroethylene along with other chemicals in operating rooms, and another epidemiological study of women exposed occupationally or nonoccupationally to trichloroethylene and other solvents, have reported increases in the incidence of miscarriages. The presence of other chemicals, however, limits the ability to draw conclusions specific to trichloroethylene. (1)
An epidemiological study of 2,000 male and female workers exposed to trichloroethylene via inhalation found no increase in malformations in babies born following exposure. (1)
Several studies have evaluated and not found an association between adverse reproductive effects in humans and exposure to trichloroethylene in contaminated drinking water. An association was found between the occurrence of congenital heart disease in children and a drinking water supply contaminated with trichloroethylene and other similar chemicals; however, no causal relationship with trichloroethylene could be concluded. (1)
Animal studies have reported developmental effects from exposure to trichloroethylene and its metabolites (trichloroacetic acid [TCA] and dichloroacetic acid [DCA]). (1,4,13)
Cancer Risk:
The cancer epidemiology for trichloroethylene has grown in recent years with several large, well-designed studies being published. A recent analysis of available epidemiological studies reports trichloroethylene exposure to be associated with several types of cancers in humans, especially kidney, liver, cervix, and lymphatic system. Consistency across epidemiological studies is strongest for an association between trichloroethylene exposure and kidney cancer. These results are supported by recent molecular epidemiology studies showing specific renal cell mutations found primarily in renal cell carcinoma patients exposed to trichloroethylene. (13)
Animal studies have reported increases in lung, liver, kidney, and testicular tumors and lymphoma from inhalation and oral exposures in rats and mice. (1,4,13)
EPA does not currently have a consensus classification for the carcinogenicity of trichloroethylene. However, the Agency is currently reassessing its potential carcinogenicity, and new data suggest that trichloroethylene is a likely human carcinogen. (11,13)
EPA uses mathematical models, based on animal studies, to estimate the probability of a person developing cancer from continuously breathing air containing a specified concentration of a chemical. EPA has calculated a provisional inhalation unit risk estimate of 1.7 x 10-6 (µg/m3)-1. A provisional value is one which has not received Agency-wide review. EPA is currently reassessing the inhalation unit risk estimate. (10)
EPA has also calculated a provisional oral cancer slope factor of 0.011 (mg/kg/d)-1. EPA is currently reassessing the oral cancer slope factor. (10)
Physical Properties
Trichloroethylene is a nonflammable colorless liquid with a sweet odor similar to ether or chloroform. (1)
The odor threshold for trichloroethylene is 28 ppm. (6)
The chemical formula for trichloroethylene is C2HCl3, and the molecular weight is 131.40 g/mol. (1)
The vapor pressure for trichloroethylene is 74 mm Hg at 25 °C, and it has a log octanol/water partition coefficient (log Kow) of 2.42. (1)
Trichloroethylene is not a persistent chemical in the atmosphere; its half-life in air is about 7 days. (1)

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Conversion Factors:
To convert concentrations in air (at 25°C) from ppm to mg/m3: mg/m3 = (ppm) × (molecular weight of the compound)/(24.45). For trichloroethylene: 1 ppm = 5.37 mg/m3. To convert concentrations in air from µg/m3 to mg/m3: mg/m3 = (µg/m3) x (1 mg/1,000 µg).

Health Data from Inhalation Exposure
ACGIH STEL--American Conference of Governmental and Industrial Hygienists' short-term exposure limit; 15-min time-weighted-average exposure that should not be exceeded at any time during a workday even if the 8-h time-weighted-average is within the threshold limit value.
ACGIH TLV--ACGIH's threshold limit value expressed as a time-weighted average; the concentration of a substance to which most workers can be exposed without adverse effects.
AIHA ERPG--American Industrial Hygiene Association's emergency response planning guidelines. ERPG 1 is the maximum airborne concentration below which it is believed nearly all individuals could be exposed up to one hour without experiencing other than mild transient adverse health effects or perceiving a clearly defined objectionable odor; ERPG 2 is the maximum airborne concentration below which it is believed nearly all individuals could be exposed up to one hour without experiencing or developing irreversible or other serious health effects that could impair their abilities to take protective action.
LC50 (Lethal Concentration50)--A calculated concentration of a chemical in air to which exposure for a specific length of time is expected to cause death in 50% of a defined experimental animal population.
NIOSH IDLH--National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health's immediately dangerous to life or health concentration; NIOSH recommended exposure limit to ensure that a worker can escape from an exposure condition that is likely to cause death or immediate or delayed permanent adverse health effects or prevent escape from the environment.
OSHA PEL--Occupational Safety and Health Administration's permissible exposure limit expressed as a time-weighted average; the concentration of a substance to which most workers can be exposed without adverse effect averaged over a normal 8-h workday or a 40-h workweek.
The health and regulatory values cited in this factsheet were obtained in December 1999.
aHealth numbers are toxicological numbers from animal testing or risk assessment values developed by EPA.
bRegulatory numbers are values that have been incorporated in Government regulations, while advisory numbers are nonregulatory values provided by the Government or other groups as advice. OSHA numbers are regulatory, whereas NIOSH, ACGIH, and AIHA numbers are advisory.
cThe LOAEL is from the critical study used as the basis for the ATSDR intermediate MRL.
dThe LOAEL is from the critical study used as the basis for the CalEPA chronic reference exposure level.
 
If your gonna play with cars there's lots of bad stuff out there for you to come in contact with not just brake cleaner/Trich. (TRIKE)
as its called in Aviation world.

Try reading all the MSDS sheets on half the junk in your shop garage or house You will be amazed that you don't have cancer already or have appendages falling off already OR both !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:eusa_think:
 
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