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catastrophic failure

cwhubb

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Question... what are the factors that determine an engines redline or as ma mopar put it point of catastrophic failure ?(I call it grenade). the listed max rpm for a factory 440 is 6000 and I know they will spin higher than that. Is it stock valve train geometry, and or rod cap fasteners that are the limiting factor? Weight of parts? I'm assuming big weight spread between parts will get everything shaking loose at high rpm.
 
a combination of factors. how goods the oiling system, valvetrain, and the weight of all the stuff flyng around on the inside would be my first concerns.
 
the valve springs & cylinder heads even the properly sized/tuned induction & ignitions systems
are usually the biggest limiting factor to higher RPM's,
lack of oil, weak or poor valve-train components, weak push rods,
the lack of good rods or a min. good rod bolts, even some bolts/hardware,
head & crankshaft retention, block design/strength, weak mains or webbing,
pressed wrist pins in cast pistons, instead of full floating with forged pistons,
any decent pistons & rings {not cast, skirts break easily}, internal balancing

all can be contributing factors, not only limited to,
the use in higher RPM & staving off catastrophic failures


BUT the cylinder heads are a really big choke point,
"usually" especially on Mopars
generally the better heads/induction/valve-train work in together &
properly matched, then a way to exhaust it more effectively/efficiently,
then maybe the higher the RPM's...

The bottom end is a different story, oil is the life blood,
an abundant supply 1 qt for every 1000 RPM, at ample pressure,
the short block/bottom end, it's basically just an air pump,
hopefully with good compression, oil retention/supply & ring seal, balancing etc.
It's the heads ability to flow, camshaft/valve-train & induction/fuel system & ignition,
dictates allot of outcome, {even the weight of the valve-train pieces}
make a difference in the ability to keep pulling, in any performance applications
bottom end needs good quality machining, balancing & "usually" forged parts, to help it live..
 
thank guys, the reason i ask is I'm putting in a 577 lift mopr performance cam and it pulls up to 6700rpm so I want to run to at least 6500 and have the motor live a long life. it has kb pistons, stock rods, as far as I know stock fasteners, it has stock rockers but I'm putting in crane ductile rockers in it.
 
thank guys, the reason i ask is I'm putting in a 577 lift mopr performance cam and it pulls up to 6700rpm so I want to run to at least 6500 and have the motor live a long life. it has kb pistons, stock rods, as far as I know stock fasteners, it has stock rockers but I'm putting in crane ductile rockers in it.

I'd be very careful with stock rods & rod bolts at that RPM range,
it doesn't mean they will fail, but it's a weak point for sure...

good luck
 
thanks budnicks, had 400 in a 73 newport drop a cap at 55mph, but that was 2 months after we pinned the speedo @ 135, twice 24 hrs apart. can you change rod bolts with out changing the bearings, It's a fairly fresh rebuild I put about a hundred miles on it after the rings seated

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I should go to a larger oil pan and pick up tube, I'm looking at miloden
 
I spin my 456 (400) to 6,000rpm all the time on a stock crank and rod assembly but had everything balanced, ARP rod bolts installed, rods re-seized and floated, ARP main bolts, lined bore checked etc. Yes you can change the bolts without changing bearings.
 
At least put in ARP 2000 rod bolts, that's where I've seen the most problems. Not the rods as much as the bolts fail. A windage tray will also help
 
thank guys, the reason i ask is I'm putting in a 577 lift mopr performance cam and it pulls up to 6700rpm so I want to run to at least 6500 and have the motor live a long life. it has kb pistons, stock rods, as far as I know stock fasteners, it has stock rockers but I'm putting in crane ductile rockers in it.

Not sure that "At least 6500 RPM" and "Long Life" should both be used in the same sentence, (lol) but when the opportunity does present itself to spank a Camaro or a Mustang with my Road Runner (383), I don't shift until she quits pulling which is right around 6,000. Still getting used to my Coronet (451), but there's a big difference in how you drive an automatic vs a 4 speed. ;)
 
thank guys, the reason i ask is I'm putting in a 577 lift mopr performance cam and it pulls up to 6700rpm so I want to run to at least 6500 and have the motor live a long life. it has kb pistons, stock rods, as far as I know stock fasteners, it has stock rockers but I'm putting in crane ductile rockers in it.
No way that cam will make power to 6700. More like 5700. 6700 with stock height pistons and stock rods will break the motor. Just a matter of how long it will take. You will find if you take it to the track I would doubt if it needs to be shifted much over 5400. Most people haven't checked because they don't have a recall tach or data recorder. The 1-2 shift takes about 500 rpm with a 727, 2-3 about 300 rpm. My current motor runs the highest RPM of any big block I've had. Best ET (9.12@147) the tach replay shows it shifts at 6900. Fully ported -1 Indys, 285/292 @.050 cam, aluminum rod, Jessel belt drive, T&D paired rockers. If I were you I would upgrade your rod bolts and keep the shifts below 6000.
Doug
 
6700's what the factory specs say on that cam, 292 advertised duration, 577 lift. its a solid lifter cam. coyoteduster, yep, thats what I meant, 6,500 when I'm racing, not all the time
 
The rod bolt upgrade to arp bolts raises some questions, I know very little about working on the bottom end of an engine, I read that you have to re-size the rods? does that mean checking to see if the cap ends are still round? do they stretch out a little from rpms/wear and tear and if so is that why the rod caps are a weak link? I thought it would be easy but now I'm a little intimidated to mess with them
 
I just resized a set of stock rods with ARP bolts Saturday. Remove pistons, remove bolts, clean rods, bead blast rods, cut cap and rod mating surfaces, clean rods and deburr, press bolts into rods, install caps and torque to spec, loosen and retorque, loosen and retorque, measure rods and hone to spec ( 2.500-2.5005). Heavy pistons, stock rod bolts, high RPM will result in failure, just a matter of time.
Doug
 
I ran more RPM than most BB Mopar guys around here for years. If you want to run above 6000 plan on GOOD rod bolts, good balance, right on clearances. The lighter the pistons the better. You'll need a well set up valve train, sound ignition & good fuel supply. If you want it to live without a lot of maintenance, stay below 6000. If not, be prepared to fix it a lot & spend more on fancier parts. RPM always finds the weak link!!
 
wow thats a pretty involved process, I had no idea. I'm going to redline it @ 6000 and keep it sane, the cam starts pulling at 3000 and I have a 3500 stall in a manual shift 727 and 4:10 dana 60 so it should still run really strong. when I get everything the way I want I'll try to find a chassis dyno to see where the engine quits pulling then go from there. thanks for the education guys,it gives me a new appreciation for all the engine builders out there. I need a small junky v8 to tear down and put back together for practice, a short block would work.
 
The main thing about keeping the lower end together at high RPM is not having a heavy reciprocating assy. Light weight pistons that are also strong is a good start. ARP rod bolts is another good thing and of course balancing. The harmonic absorber also plays an important roll in keeping torsional stresses to a minimum so make sure you have a good one of those suited for the RPM range of the engine. If you plan to spend time in the 6500 RPM range then you might want to build for 7000 or more and that would require a stronger crank and rods IMO.
 
I have 3 engines, my old cast crank 440 has indy heads, 600 lift solid, TRW pistons, a 150 shot of gas with stock bottom end, we have about 150 nine second passes on it ! The poor thing goes through the traps at 7000 rpm, semi retired now but the engine lives and has not been rebuilt and still gets a flogging in my son's Valiant.

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Ad to that, one of the pistons is a Manley that I shaped myself to match the other 7 TRW's with a grinder and the block has 2 sleeves :)
 
lol now thats an old war horse talk about grass roots racing, I love it. ozy = crazy train rock on :headbang:
 
Interesting point concerning your REDLINE RPM Post:

So, Friday 27 Feb I took a day off here at work and ran to Fresno, CA to pick up a 489 3rd member (3:55) I had just bought.
The guy is a great guy! He held it for me for a couple of weeks.
I made the 175 mile journey and this is what I found in his garage:

Also, be advised, it may be for sale...I get first pick he said.
BUT: He blew the engine because he "Revved" it up to 6,000 RPM 2X when his brother was here visiting.
(This guy is much older, and he is getting tired of working on the car etc)

My point:
RPM kill "Non-race" built engines....
 

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will I was putting my 383 together, I recheck the rod bolts afew times. Each time the bolts yielded about 10 degrees. Could not sleep that night thinking about it! Next day I put a set arp bolts that I had for a 440. The engine was on a stand, but you could do it in the car. You don't need to changing the bearings, but it would be a good time to look at the bearings. You will need to torque and loosen the bolts 3 times the first time to set them up right. Those KB are not lite. I agree done pull it pass 5500 and it will last a lot longer. Ditto on the windage tray and a good baffled oilpan. You wont need to re-torque the rodbolts again.
 
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