Changing the roller cam paradigm?

[beanhead]

I'm starting to see information about roller cams that contradicts what we've been told regarding oils and break-in procedures.
As we've all heard by now, the benefit of rollers is no flat tappet-style break in, no zddp or special oils needed...but there's also been plenty of documented failures. Usually getting blamed on "inferior" parts...maybe not though?
The link here takes you to a .pdf on the subject. I'm sure there'll be lots of "I never did any of that and mine's just fine" comments which is fine but I thought it might make for good discussion. Sometimes "the way we've always done it" isn't the best and could be better...maybe? Check it out.

http://www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ317_62-66.pdf

 

[zyzzyx]

The highest pressure point in an engine is the lifter to cam contact point. If you take that point away
with a roller lifter, you won't need any ZDDP. I am not an expert or metalurgist, but a lowly retired
Machinist. That being said, I think the majority of failures lies within Quality Control of the materials
being used in the camshafts and the rollers. What location on the globe are these parts being made??

 

[beanhead]

I know what you're saying....but did you check out the article? Some food for thought there. And it's not 'new', but more of the same information is starting to come out. I don't have skin in the game at this point, it just makes me wonder if the "rules" for roller cams are shifting for aftermarket high-performance builds...or will it just cause more confusion?

 

[Kern Dog]

While many think break-in procedures are just for flat-tappet cams, testing has shown that today’s close-tolerance hydraulic lifters greatly benefit from a dedicated break-in procedure. A recent two-year study of valve train break-in procedures has discovered a new direction in proper cam and lifter break-in.
The following describes the procedures and recommended products. Important things to know:
1. Diesel oils are no longer a safe bet for engine break-in. As of December 2016, oil formulations have changed and some diesel oils now have lower levels of ZDDP. In fact, Ford Motor Company does not recommend the new CK-4 diesel oil for theirengines.

2. ZDDP Additives are not 100% guaranteed to work. Recent testing of CK-4 diesel oil plus a ZDDP additive still produced failing results. Additionally, testing shows ZDDP additives produced worse ring seal results than fully formulated break-in oil.

3. Break-In oil works best. Repeated break-in testing produced zero flat tappet cam failures with 150 lbs of seat pressure using Driven’s Break-In Oil (Part # 00106) in conjunction with Driven Assembly Grease (#00732) to pre-lube the cam and lifters.

4. Heat cycles help. The least amount of recorded break-in wear occurred when the engine was ran at 2800 rpm for ten minutes, allowed to cool, and ran again for another ten minutes. This is now recommended for all camshafts - bushing and needle bearing lifters, or flat tappets .Why the correct viscosity and a proper break-in oil is important for hydraulic roller cam break-in:

1. Today’s hydraulic roller lifters respond best to 10W-40 oil(Driven part number 03706). Many noisy lifter complaints are actually from using the wrong viscosity. A thicker, higher viscosity oil like 20W-50 will not flow enough oil into the lifter and too little viscosity, like a 5W-30, will allow the lifters to “bleed down” easily. While there is a common misconception that performance engines need a 20W-50, results show 10W-40provides the correct viscosity for hydraulic lifters.

2. The best protection for hydraulic roller lifters is to use a fully formulated break-in oil. Another reason for noisy lifters and poor performance is debris caught in the lifter. Ten times more break in particles are produced during break-in, most of which will got through the lifters. A proper break-in oil (Driven part number03706) will not wear in parts aggressively enough to cause excess debris. Change the oil and filter after break-in and again in 500 miles to to get wear particles out of the engine before they do lasting damage.

3. These same recommendations apply to engines with stamped steel rocker arms. The pivot point’s high friction level generates significant heat, so proper lubrication is critical to their break-in. Wiped cam lobes can be avoided by using the correct assembly grease and break-in oil. A few practical assembly and break-in steps to avoid problems:

1. Clean and degrease parts. Use a foaming degreaser to remove the greasy rust-preventative film parts are coated with before shipping. The film seals out moisture but also traps fine particulates. Make sure the metal surfaces have been cleared of these abrasive particles before applying assembly lubricant to avoid lifter damage

2. Apply a calcium-sulfonate grease instead of ZDDP before assembly. ZDDP requires heat to activate while calcium sulfonate activates at room temperature. While ZDDP is important, calcium-sulfonate grease provides critical extreme protection.

 

[beanhead]

Thanks for posting that Kern! I guess I should have done that but I got lazy LOL!...Here's the rest of it--


3. Use a finer micron filter during break-in. Generally, production
vehicle filters have a finer micron rating than racing filters. For
example, a WIX 51061 Chevy small block filter has a nominal
micron of 21 with a flow rate of 11 GPM. A WIX 51061R racing
filter has a nominal micron of 61 and a flow rate of 28 GPM. WIX
also offers a specific break-in filter for dry-sump systems.

4. Prime the pump before starting the engine. The oil system
must be primed and the cam and lifters need a full supply of oil
at startup to avoid “dry starting.” Use a lighter viscosity oil on
systems unable to be primed to improve oil flow during the critical
moments of initial start-up. Unprimed engine testing reveals a
50% reduction in valve train wear using a 5W-30 break-in oil
versus a 15W-50 break-in oil.

5. Do not let the engine idle. Much of the camshaft is lubricated
by oil slung from the crankshaft so start the engine and
immediately bring it up to 2,800 RPM. Vary the speed by a few
hundred RPMs over the course of the next 30 minutes’ total,
stopping the engine after the first ten minutes to let it cool down.
Re-start and bring it back up to RPM and repeat
through two more 10-minute run sessions to complete
the heat-cycle break-in process.

6. Change the oil filter after the initial 30-minute
break-in process. Tighter micron filters during break-
in catch larger particles but flow less. After break-in,
the ideal filtration is tight enough to catch clearance-
sized particles while flowing enough oil to supply the
engine’s required volume. Replace the break-in filter
with a higher flowing race filter before making dyno
runs or racing.

7. In addition to the filter, change the oil. The engine
creates 10 times more wear metals in the first 30
minutes than over the next 3 hours of operation.
Always use a high ZDDP break-in oil (Driven part
number 03706) to reduce the amount of particulate
created during break-in and change the oil and filter
immediately after initial break-in to avoid clogging in
hydraulic lifters. ZDDP break-in oil is like a primer for
the engine that builds off the anti-wear film established
by the calcium sulfonate grease. This creates a
chemically-matched foundation for lasting protection.

8. After break-in, change the oil again after 500 road
miles or the initial dyno runs in a competition engine.
Continue to use high quality oil designed for the
application and follow normal change intervals.
Keeping clean, high quality oil in the engine is
insurance against lubrication-related problems.

Lake Speed Jr. Driven Racing Oils

 

[Kern Dog]

If this is true, it is a bit of a let down that ALL the worries of oil related failures are not eliminated by switching to a roller cam.
I thought with the rollers, you could just use regular oil and leave the anxiety behind.

 

[RemCharger]

If this is true, it is a bit of a let down that ALL the worries of oil related failures are not eliminated by switching to a roller cam.
I thought with the rollers, you could just use regular oil and leave the anxiety behind.

Couldn't open the link.
Short coles- notes version?

 

[beanhead]

Here's another tidbit I found, from Gaterman's website (they don't discuss oils here, but they also recommend a break-in)

 

[beanhead]

Couldn't open the link.
Short coles- notes version?

Well, it's not too short but posts 4 and 5 are copies of it.
.....Is "Cole" Cliff's Canadian cousin? Haha (we call it cliff's notes down here)

 

[beanhead]

If this is true, it is a bit of a let down that ALL the worries of oil related failures are not eliminated by switching to a roller cam.
I thought with the rollers, you could just use regular oil and leave the anxiety behind.

True. We have a friend here that's been a ford tech for years, that builds engines on the side and has turned out some great running stuff (for the ford guys anyway). He advised my buddy (new 331 stroker roller motor) to use an oil with some zddp, and to do the break-in procedure. It is a little disappointing to hear...but none of the engines he's built have had any valvetrain problems, from streeters to 8 and 9 second race cars so maybe there's something to it!

 

[RemCharger]

Well, it's not too short but posts 4 and 5 are copies of it.
.....Is "Cole" Cliff's Canadian cousin? Haha (we call it cliff's notes down here)

Thanks, went back and read. I see most of it is geared towards hydraulic lifters. But yes the pushrod tip to rocker is the next area of needing some good protection.
Also, new style engines have rollers.. no zddp required... unless maybe initial oil has some package in it.

You made me look up coles notes lol

 

[stage3]

my 480" hemi broke a tip off a pushrod right here in the driveway a few years ago, solid roller cam with crower roller lifters and indy roller rockers. was running Valvoline 20w-50 racing oil as usual.

got indy on the phone and they proceeded to tell me about zinc and phosphorous being removed from modern oils to make catalytic converters last the mandated 125000 miles , after checking all other pushrod cups they were all burnt looking probably ready to break also....

all that cost over 5000.00 to fix..Now i ad lucas oil additive Everytime to make sure the zinc/ph is in there....to be sure.

 

[moparedtn]

It's interesting (to me, anyways) that the 1989 5.0 Mustang I bought new and owned for quite a few years (and
a quarter million miles, no less) was a factory roller cam engine that lasted practically forever -
this despite me beating it like a rented mule.
I always used Mobil1 synthetic in it, but nothing high zinc or phosphates or whatever....
just store-bought Mobil1.
Keep in mind, zinc was in still in our oil until the mid-90s anyways...

 

[lewtot184]

Does anybody remember when the rod bearings had a small notch in them that matched up to a groove on the rods parting surface that allowed some upper end lubing? Anyhow, bearing notches are gone.

 

[zyzzyx]

So, some Engineer guy out there should be able to figure out the threshold pressure at which the cam and
lifters start to dislike each other? I still think after reading the PDF article that protective oil film is a small part of the problem.
Even in roller lifter cars, the alignment between the cam lobe and the roller needs to be dead-on so there is
no side thrust on the lifter. Two materials that rub on one another need to be compatible and they need to be
heat treated correctly. Too many things in play here. Oil, materials, heat treating process. And then after all
of that, we pay thousands of dollars for these set-ups and follow the instructions and they fail! I hope someone
comes up with an answer soon because we're running out of money and time!

 

[moparedtn]

All I know is that if I ever build another one, I will actvely seek out and purchase a cam made 20
years ago - lifters too - and they will be fed just like Fred is now, with a good quality high-zinc oil.
We've all known those who have had cam failures - heck, most of us have experienced one ourselves -
and we all know where those cams were typically manufactured.
Simple enough for me.

 

[bearman]

I will just stay with my amsoil and let it do the job.

 

[Randy Wilson]

While many think break-in procedures are just for flat-tappet cams, testing has shown that today’s close-tolerance hydraulic lifters greatly benefit from a dedicated break-in procedure. A recent two-year study of valve train break-in procedures has discovered a new direction in proper cam and lifter break-in.
The following describes the procedures and recommended products. Important things to know:
1. Diesel oils are no longer a safe bet for engine break-in. As of December 2016, oil formulations have changed and some diesel oils now have lower levels of ZDDP. In fact, Ford Motor Company does not recommend the new CK-4 diesel oil for theirengines.

2. ZDDP Additives are not 100% guaranteed to work. Recent testing of CK-4 diesel oil plus a ZDDP additive still produced failing results. Additionally, testing shows ZDDP additives produced worse ring seal results than fully formulated break-in oil.

3. Break-In oil works best. Repeated break-in testing produced zero flat tappet cam failures with 150 lbs of seat pressure using Driven’s Break-In Oil (Part # 00106) in conjunction with Driven Assembly Grease (#00732) to pre-lube the cam and lifters.

4. Heat cycles help. The least amount of recorded break-in wear occurred when the engine was ran at 2800 rpm for ten minutes, allowed to cool, and ran again for another ten minutes. This is now recommended for all camshafts - bushing and needle bearing lifters, or flat tappets .Why the correct viscosity and a proper break-in oil is important for hydraulic roller cam break-in:

1. Today’s hydraulic roller lifters respond best to 10W-40 oil(Driven part number 03706). Many noisy lifter complaints are actually from using the wrong viscosity. A thicker, higher viscosity oil like 20W-50 will not flow enough oil into the lifter and too little viscosity, like a 5W-30, will allow the lifters to “bleed down” easily. While there is a common misconception that performance engines need a 20W-50, results show 10W-40provides the correct viscosity for hydraulic lifters.

2. The best protection for hydraulic roller lifters is to use a fully formulated break-in oil. Another reason for noisy lifters and poor performance is debris caught in the lifter. Ten times more break in particles are produced during break-in, most of which will got through the lifters. A proper break-in oil (Driven part number03706) will not wear in parts aggressively enough to cause excess debris. Change the oil and filter after break-in and again in 500 miles to to get wear particles out of the engine before they do lasting damage.

3. These same recommendations apply to engines with stamped steel rocker arms. The pivot point’s high friction level generates significant heat, so proper lubrication is critical to their break-in. Wiped cam lobes can be avoided by using the correct assembly grease and break-in oil. A few practical assembly and break-in steps to avoid problems:

1. Clean and degrease parts. Use a foaming degreaser to remove the greasy rust-preventative film parts are coated with before shipping. The film seals out moisture but also traps fine particulates. Make sure the metal surfaces have been cleared of these abrasive particles before applying assembly lubricant to avoid lifter damage

2. Apply a calcium-sulfonate grease instead of ZDDP before assembly. ZDDP requires heat to activate while calcium sulfonate activates at room temperature. While ZDDP is important, calcium-sulfonate grease provides critical extreme protection.

There are a handful of CK-4 diesel engine oils out there with a high amount of ZDDP, it’s usually the high end companies, not Chevron , Shell, ect. We run them in Powerstroke Fords with no issue. Use them in our flat tappet cam applications as well.

 

[Cranky]

While many think break-in procedures are just for flat-tappet cams, testing has shown that today’s close-tolerance hydraulic lifters greatly benefit from a dedicated break-in procedure. A recent two-year study of valve train break-in procedures has discovered a new direction in proper cam and lifter break-in.
The following describes the procedures and recommended products. Important things to know:
1. Diesel oils are no longer a safe bet for engine break-in. As of December 2016, oil formulations have changed and some diesel oils now have lower levels of ZDDP. In fact, Ford Motor Company does not recommend the new CK-4 diesel oil for theirengines.

2. ZDDP Additives are not 100% guaranteed to work. Recent testing of CK-4 diesel oil plus a ZDDP additive still produced failing results. Additionally, testing shows ZDDP additives produced worse ring seal results than fully formulated break-in oil.

3. Break-In oil works best. Repeated break-in testing produced zero flat tappet cam failures with 150 lbs of seat pressure using Driven’s Break-In Oil (Part # 00106) in conjunction with Driven Assembly Grease (#00732) to pre-lube the cam and lifters.

4. Heat cycles help. The least amount of recorded break-in wear occurred when the engine was ran at 2800 rpm for ten minutes, allowed to cool, and ran again for another ten minutes. This is now recommended for all camshafts - bushing and needle bearing lifters, or flat tappets .Why the correct viscosity and a proper break-in oil is important for hydraulic roller cam break-in:

1. Today’s hydraulic roller lifters respond best to 10W-40 oil(Driven part number 03706). Many noisy lifter complaints are actually from using the wrong viscosity. A thicker, higher viscosity oil like 20W-50 will not flow enough oil into the lifter and too little viscosity, like a 5W-30, will allow the lifters to “bleed down” easily. While there is a common misconception that performance engines need a 20W-50, results show 10W-40provides the correct viscosity for hydraulic lifters.

2. The best protection for hydraulic roller lifters is to use a fully formulated break-in oil. Another reason for noisy lifters and poor performance is debris caught in the lifter. Ten times more break in particles are produced during break-in, most of which will got through the lifters. A proper break-in oil (Driven part number03706) will not wear in parts aggressively enough to cause excess debris. Change the oil and filter after break-in and again in 500 miles to to get wear particles out of the engine before they do lasting damage.

3. These same recommendations apply to engines with stamped steel rocker arms. The pivot point’s high friction level generates significant heat, so proper lubrication is critical to their break-in. Wiped cam lobes can be avoided by using the correct assembly grease and break-in oil. A few practical assembly and break-in steps to avoid problems:

1. Clean and degrease parts. Use a foaming degreaser to remove the greasy rust-preventative film parts are coated with before shipping. The film seals out moisture but also traps fine particulates. Make sure the metal surfaces have been cleared of these abrasive particles before applying assembly lubricant to avoid lifter damage

2. Apply a calcium-sulfonate grease instead of ZDDP before assembly. ZDDP requires heat to activate while calcium sulfonate activates at room temperature. While ZDDP is important, calcium-sulfonate grease provides critical extreme protection.

#4.....maybe that's why I never had any problems with break in....usually had to shut down for one reason or another. Usually didn't go to 2800 though but 2200-2600 and varied it between those numbers.

 

[fourgearsavoy]

#4.....maybe that's why I never had any problems with break in....usually had to shut down for one reason or another. Usually didn't go to 2800 though but 2200-2600 and varied it between those numbers.

That #4 is very similar to the break in procedure for Howards flat tappet cams. I followed the procedure they recommended and had no problems. It was very different from other break in procedures I've used in the past. I went with an Isky solid roller this time around with Howards lifters. The cam was about 30 years old from what I decipher by the numbers engraved on it. I just used 5-30 Valvoline dino oil in the current combo.
Gus