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Detonation

Try adding some E 85 into the mix. It's 105 octane and may help a little. Like 1 gallon into 5 gallons of premium. Also keep the engine as cool as possible. I removed my thermostat in my 13 to 1 C/R 451, and that really helped. But I am running 292 degrees total duration cam. Go to a cam that closes the intake valve later. Longer duration, or retard that one 4 degrees. Also slightly richer mixtures help. There are advance limiter plates you can put in to limit your total advance, so you can start with the right amount of initial advance. What does your detonation sound like? Is it a rattling sound?

Yeah, it is a rattling sound. I usually back off the throttle when I hear it. I have had it go away with octane boosters. Engine is VERY fun then. I'm just trying to find the right booster for now. I built the engine to be able to run some E85 which is why it is 10 to 1 compression. Then I got a job where E85 is scarce. I put two electric fans on so I'm rarely over 180-190 temp-wise.

Might try to get a compression check done this weekend and take a look at the plugs then too. I probably don't have 200 miles on the rebuild yet, so hopefully can get something figured out.
 
Have you tried to tune the carb at all? The XE268 should be fine for what you have. The timing is only part of the equasion. The other part is the carb setting. If a) it doesn't do it cold; and b) the carb change had an affect... Then you need to enrichen the carb, probably start with the float settings, then the power valve or step up springs depending on the type of carb, then the jetting or rod/jet combinations. You are too lean.
 
Have you tried to tune the carb at all? The XE268 should be fine for what you have. The timing is only part of the equasion. The other part is the carb setting. If a) it doesn't do it cold; and b) the carb change had an affect... Then you need to enrichen the carb, probably start with the float settings, then the power valve or step up springs depending on the type of carb, then the jetting or rod/jet combinations. You are too lean.

This does make some sense. I'm still learning a lot about carbs to be honest. I've done most of my work on Fuel Injection, MAF stuff. I had the Carburetor Shop do a rebuild on the carb I just put on. It runs quite a bit differently now, and not entirely all for the better. So, I'm sure I need to tune it.

I didn't have time to do a full compression test, but I did a couple easy to reach cylinders cold and then 1 hot just to get an idea. I will try to do the rest soon as I know this will drive some of you crazy. I just wanted an idea...


So, cold, cylinder 1 was about 160. at 150 degrees it was 155. Cylinder 8 was also 160 cold.
 
So, cold, cylinder 1 was about 160. at 150 degrees it was 155. Cylinder 8 was also 160 cold.

Those are good numbers. You shouldn't be getting detonation on 92. Time to check other things like Moper indicated a lean running carburetor, depending on the carb you have check the enrichment under throttle, really lean can detonate. Edelbrocks use metering rods and holley/demon use power valves. Get a tuning kit for your carb you will need one anyways if you plan to keep the car a long time. Distributor advance (total), determine that with a timing light. The more data you have the more you can check off the list.
 
EFI is just doing a better job of what a carb does. so if you're tuning EFI, you can tune a carb. The difference is YOU have to know the values, and YOU have to make the adjustments to the few circuits in the carb to adjust it. A PCM won't do it for you.
 
The reason that we study history is so that we can avoid mistakes from the past, right?

I had similar problems a few years ago. I posted my troubles on several web forums and got a wide range of advice. One good suggestion was in regards to distributor tuning. What distributor are you using? Some are easier to modify or tune than others. I have the Mopar Performance electronic, a unit that is easily tuned but has some design flaws to it. I run a 440 based 493 and even with a big cam, it still knocked at 3/4 throttle unless I ran 110 leaded race gas in it. Backing off the timing made the car sluggish as hell but it stopped knocking. I had almost 11-1 compression with aluminum heads. In the end, I went with thicker head gaskets that dropped the ratio to 10.07-1. I run 17 degrees initial with 34 degrees total timing, PLUS vacuum advance. I did add stiffer springs in the distributor to slow down the rate of advance. Before, it would reach full advance at 2200-2300 rpms. A slower rate of advance can help. Other advice I got: Cold air type inlet to the air cleaner, less restrictive exhaust, water injection, methanol injection, E85....
After the compression ratio drop, I went with a smaller cam and a tighter torque converter. The car is so much more fun to drive now.
 
To check advance curve, disconnect the vacuum advance line from the dist. you need to read the crank dampner degrees up to around 50 degrees BTDC. Easy way is to use a dial-back timing light, but a standard timing light will work if the dampner has the degrees marked. Mopar sells a stick on "timing tape" if you need it. Summit racing has them for $6.00

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-4529070?seid=srese1&gclid=CIiEx-6e78sCFY-DaQodX3IOFA


While watching the timing on the dampner with the timing light, increase the engine RPM to a point slightly above where the timing stops advancing (should be around 3,000+ RPM, depends on stiffness of advance springs.) This is the total mechanical ignition advance. Assuming the dampner zero mark is correct for TDC, set this total mechanical advance to about 35-36 degrees. That should get the total timing fairly close. Return engine RPM to idle. Read the advance at idle and subtract from the total above to figure how much advance is in the curve. If the idle advance is around 14 degrees then you have 22 degrees of mechanical advance in the curve. Different engine combinations like different initial timing, but I think if your idle advance falls below 12 degrees (24 in the curve) then you would want to have the dist re-curved to reduce the amount of mechanical advance in the curve. The way the change is made depends on how the design of the dist advance. If a Mopar electronic Dist, these even changed design over the years.

For compression gauge test, pull all the spark plugs. Having them in will make the engine spin slower. Disconnect the ignition coil, of if electronic ignition disconnect the dist harness so you don't get shocked from the disconnect plug wires. Then make sure the carb throttle is fully open when you spin the engine with the starter.

These cylinder pressures relate well to the engine dynamic compression ratio, which is a re-calculation of compression ratio calculated from the point of when the intake closes. This is the amount of air/fuel that would be captured and compressed at the point the intake closes (assuming no engine RPM.) Advancing or retarding the camshaft position or changing the cam (or static compression) will change these values and your cranking cylinder pressure.

When you compress the air/fuel in the chamber, its temperature will also increase. The higher the compression, the hotter the A/F in the engine cylinder (think Diesel engine operation.)
If you can lower the initial temperature of the air/fuel going into the engine, the compressed temps will be lower also. One reason why you don't get the pinging on your cold engine, and forced induction engines use intercoolers and/or water/methanol injection.
On my high compression engines, I have run 160-degree thermostat, and try to get cool air into the carb. Not the air that has been heated going through the radiator.

Other factors of the engine design would be quench, chamber (and piston design), and spark plug location in the chamber, but making these changes should have been considered when selecting parts for the engine, as changing them now would be expensive.
 
Thanks for the great write-up, 451Mopar. Very helpful.

The engine pieces were considered carefully. And it was built by a reputable shop. So, hopefully I just need to dial this thing in some more. I have paperwork on the thing I just need to dig to find it so I can give you more details.

In the meantime I will try to get some more numbers. Checking compression on a hot V8 really sucks with my compression tester unfortunately. It never wants to thread easily. I have a couple blisters from the numbers I already have. Still, time is on my side.

I will keep you guys posted with what I dig up. Right now carb tuning is also at the top of my list. It isn't running great, especially on startup, since I switched carbs.

Also, I'm starting to accept the fact that if I need to run a booster, I will. I don't drive the thing THAT much. I just want to do something that allows me to drive it safely without having to open the engine up again. I'm getting tired of wrenching with no driving! I've been working on this car for like 20 years....
 
DodgeT, One trick for compression tests with hot engines is gloves, they still can get hot, but help a lot.

The suggestions of 451Mopar for compression testing are important, especially making sure the secondaries are open when checking compression.

1) As far as knowing what distributor you have, I understand you are looking into this, but I wonder if a picture might allow people like Kern Dog to help.

2) I think knowing the advance curve is critical. It is not difficult to measure if you have a tachometer. Measuring it assumes the lines on the dampner are correct.


I have a few other questions (they may also help in the end):

3) I did not see where you mentioned what plugs are in the engine. What are they? Part of the problem could be heat range?

4) Do you know what the mixture is? And whether there are parts where the mixture goes lean? I installed an A/F gauge and found it very helpful.

5) What temperature is the thermostat keeping the engine when warmed up?

I apologize if I misread, or missed the point on this, but I think it is important to know you are not lean and also that your spark is not too hot.
 
Try richening up the carb a little, could be too lean. What carb are you using? I like the Holleys, like a 780 vac secondary or a 750 to 850 Dbl Pumper should work well. I use an 850 D Pumper on my 13 to 1 451, with 88 jets all around at 5600 feet. Sounds rich, since stock calls for 80s all around. But I run 25% E 85 which tends to lean it out. And this motor moves some air!

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And I have no pinging with 98 octane. (3-2-3 mix of 100 Sonoco, E 85, 91 premium). Do some experimenting to see what works for you.Sounds like you're close.
 
Not really much for me to add that everyone has not already told you. I dont want to throw another hand in the pot and confuse you more. First off your using an iron head eng that sounds like it does not have quench so thats already two things against you in wanting to run todays crappy pump gas. If your compression gauge is accurate then your cyl pressures sound ok. Make real sure the eng is not to lean or running to hot but dont keep driving it with it pinging alot or you will end up hurting the eng. You may have to have your timing curve changed if you get everything else in the ballpark and still have pinging. Just make sure when you build your next eng to build quench in it and use aluminum heads as that helps also and its a good idea for a custom grind cam to be sure and keep the intake closing right for pump.

Problem is many are running engines built in or to the 60's and 70's specs when you could do that with the pump you could get back then. You can build a strong eng to run on todays pump but you need to build it right using the technology of today to make it run on todays pump. Good luck to you and if you dont know carbs and how to set your timing curve to well try to find a friend or someone in your area who is good at it and will help you. We can tell you all the things to do but its nice to have someone right there with you with their hands on the job helping you who knows carbs and tuning real good. Ron
 
Run a correct to slightly rich Air/Fuel mixture, make sure ignition timing is correct, keep the engine as cool as possible, add some E 85 if you can find it, or some booster, and as a last resort,you can also retard the cam timing 2 to 4 degrees. This should get you real close or cure the pinging issue.
 
I wonder how the modern engines do it so well...besides computer controls, is it the cylinder head design? The Hyundai Genesis 5 litre V8 has 11.8 compression and pushes out 421 hp. on regular gas. More on premium.
 
I've been wondering the same thing. I know an engine will ping more with the same load/throttle opening at a lower RPM, than at a higher RPM. So if you can keep the cyl pressure down until a certain RPM is reached, you can run a higher C/R and cyl pressure.

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My Infiniti takes off as if the turbo kicks in at about 3500 RPM. But it doesn't have one! Not sure what the computer is doing to the motor to cause a big increase in torque, but something is happening. Its very noticeable. Maybe timing advance, mixture change, or even cam timing advance or retard?
 
I wonder how the modern engines do it so well...besides computer controls, is it the cylinder head design? The Hyundai Genesis 5 litre V8 has 11.8 compression and pushes out 421 hp. on regular gas. More on premium.

Quench and variable valve timing vvt
 
I'm stuck at 92 octane where I live and my 440 is having a hard time with it. It seems to want more advance, but I'm constantly fighting detonation if I get into it (and where's the fun in not doing that).

Even at around 5 degrees btdc I'm getting detonation - and it still seems to want more advance - of course it runs better around 10 - 15. Do I need to adjust the distributor springs or something? I shouldn't be much above 10.5 to 1 compression.

What additives are people using to boost their octane?

440, auto, N96
Comp Cams Xtreme Energy XE268H
Use the race gas additive one that Mentor has recomended. If you have iron heads it is worce than aluminum.Check your cranking pressure with aluminum heads you must be under 200psi and use 94 octane and up. Race gas additive really does work. Be carefull of others.
 
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