Dreamers!

[Donny]

I used to be one, and, there's many in here, but, the same record seems to keep playing, and, I don't think it's going to get past the skip in the record until the truth is told! Us car guys love our cars! We do! We want to do everything ourselves, so we can say -- with pride -- "I did that" at a Car show, Forum, Facebook, whatever! We like to impress our peers, be perceived as informed, even skilled and knowledgeable so we might become the 'Go To Person' for this or that as relating to our cars and or projects.

When we don't have the skills, or space, or tools, and we have spent years on the aforementioned platforms learning, reading, observing and becoming 'experts', we hire someone to do the job, right? Sure, this is how everything works, and is supposed to work. In my lane I see the car guy with his love -- his car come to me for services. Usually, it's just the Media Blasting, and the car's gone when I'm done, prices are set and contracts signed, we're all happy! When the inevitable 'Mission Creep' kicks in is when it always gets silly. So silly, that I'm just not going to tolerate the foolishness any longer. It's taken me about 2 yrs of thinking, war-gaming, and planning, predicting, and, sadly seeing predictions come true!

The truth I speak of is Mr. Car Nut with his ordinary Brand X car. He comes in wanting what's at the end; a nice car done for cheap. We all want this, we really do! However, unless you have the skills, time, tools, space you're not going to get it like you want it. Mr. Car Guy has a short list of what he wants me to do, he tries to nail me down on a price and time to do it, and, of course a cost! But, I always underline the key word 'ESTIMATE' and he signs the contract stating the end state objectives.

So, 30 or so days go by, the meager down payment is quickly exhausted, new invoices drawn up, sent off in email, and then the dragging of heels, complaints, *******, excuses start coming in. I used to entertain these gripes. Now, I don't. When I get the song and dance about "My wife this or that..." I say "I don't care". Then, I tell them when I get my electricity bill I can't just say "Oh, how about I pay 40% of that because I don't think that's a fair price to pay"! Yes, folks, I get this crap all the time! If I did that, the Electric company would come over, and pull my meter. I got this from a guy last week "How about I pay you $500.00". I said "No, you pay me all of what I billed you, or, your nice Brand X car gets pushed outside, and storage fees commence at $50.00 a day". This usually get's their attention.

To get to the point, us car guys LOVE our cars, then why is there so much pulling of hair over costs??? Nothing ever goes according to a budget, in fact, let me tell you a simple truth, there can't be a budget to get these cars done! Mr Brand X car is not made of Steel, so, when the Body came off, the entire underside is cracked like the Grand Canyon needing perhaps 30 hours more of work that wasn't factored into Mr. Car Guys' 'budget'. So, how is that my problem? You say go ahead and fix it, what part did you not understand of our agreement? I just can't get over how a hobby filled with so many passionate talented people just scoff dead in their tracks when the rubber meets the road?

Some solutions to execute: Mechanics Lein to be part of the process. Collect the Last month's estimated invoice price up front as earnest money, collect half of the estimated costs up front, bill by each 2 weeks. These are tools to help convince people that the guy they hire is NOT your buddy, is NOT your place to hang out and do work, is NOT there to teach you how to do your car for free. I had another Brand X guy just casually mention to me he wanted to come "Help me out on his car, and if that was ok"? I said no, it's not ok, but, no one has ever asked before! Then, he offers to sign a Liability Release Form more out of attempt to seem like a 'good guy'. So, when the stars align, and he and I can link up so he can do a few things to his car, I have the form ready for him to sign, and a bill stating how much it cost me to download from some law site, and he looks at me like "I thought we were friends, we're going to build my car together". I enforce his signature, and he does some minuscule tasks like drill spot welds with his brand new Blair bits and shiny new drill and new gloves while I tend to other paying jobs.

In case you're wondering, yes, this is ALL first hand stuff I've seen over and over again. Car guys can be *** holes, cheap SOBs who just need to write me a check to do the work they hired me to do, no arguments, no bitching, just show up, write a check, take 5 minutes and oogle, then, go away! How us Car Guys think we can just stride in, be buddy buddy with the guy you hired, and take all his time? It's beyond me.

The face to face advice John Balow gave me at the tour he invited me and my wife on his MCR shop rings ever more truthful today! He said don't let customers come in unless they arrange a time to come by and inspect their project. Have no windows below 10 ft above ground, Don't take money for work you have not done yet, but, charge for work you do, time is not free. Collect 100 hours up front as initial deposit to show commitment. All things I do on varying degrees. But, the fact of the Car Guy wanting to be part of the process, then complaining about costs is the double edged sword that is often masked as sincere business interests, but, often can cover a empty hole!

 

[themechanic]

Feel better now? :yes:

I get it. Thanks for your perspective from the shop's point of view. Frankly, I don't trust anyone to work on my car. But when I need to hire a shop I understand it may end up costing more than I thought at the start.

 

[Deleted member 214]

I am taking my six pack to a local muscle car specialty garage for some engine work. They used to do full restos but said they gave up due to customers dragging their feet on paying and now do shorter jobs only.

 

[Pugly]

I couldn't imagine the frustration a car owner must feel when a shop hits him with 30hrs of more work. I mean WTF?, that shop owner was supposed to be a professional? How did he miss 30hrs more work? Does he think I am made of Gold and can just chit 3-4-5K out my arse to pay him? Holy Chit.. this was supposed to be an easy job. Haven't these guys ever watched TV? Those guys do it in less than a week. and then he calls and just demands payment! WTH? I am just supposed to have another wad of cash laying around for him to scoop up whenever he needs it?

This is such BS, my old lady is going to kill me. I should have never bought that car...chit I am screwed.


LOL.........


I feel yer pain. I have run an automotive shop for 30 years... I don't even let it get to me anymore.

 

[Mopars & Missiles]

On the other hand, you have the arrogant, know-it-all, I'll do it my way regardless of what the owner wants, I won't bother to answer the phone unless I WANT to talk to you, shop owners who are liar's, cheater's, and thieves.

When its MY car, and MY money paying YOU, that means I AM THE BOSS, not you. If you give me an HONEST upfront estimate, of both time and money and answer the phone when I call to talk to you, there wouldn't be any problems.

Funny you mentioned that OTHER shop, I've dealt with them, NEVER again. Also a couple other shops almost as bad. Thanks for your post about YOUR business IDEALS, I can now tell what type of business you run. Don't hold your breath waiting to work on one of my cars, NOT going to happen.

Oh, and THANKS AGAIN for your post, very informative.

 

[snakeoil24]

Donny business is tuff today no matter what industry your in. I work in the chemical Industry and have issues with customers. I look to sell to those who see my service as saving them man power and keeping them out of trouble with the Government. Again no matter what industry your in today everything is a fight. I have worked on cars for 40 years now. I rarely let anyone in my garage and I do not do it for a living like you do. If the business is agrevating you that much maybe time to get out and find something else. But in the economy we are in, don't expect it to improve for a good long time. I have lived the experience with people paying.

 

[hunt2elk]

Being self employed myself, another thing that makes me laugh is when you give a bill to someone and they figure the whole amount of the check they just wrote out is pure profit for you. Overhead? what's that? Cost of materials? Well that could only be a couple of bucks. Sometimes it's really not that rosey being on your own.

 

[bee71]

You seem to leave out the fact that there are many of us who have been taken by supposedly reputable people.

 

[satellite66]

The other side of the coin is having a car owner pay for a product/service up front and then not see any results or get excuse after excuse. Case in point: an order I paid for in full to SMS Auto fabrics and here it is 18 months later and I have nothing but e-mails. One of which told me back in June that I would have my order that month and they apologized for the delay. Here it is December and I still don't have my order.

 

[RGAZ]

It goes both ways and the honest peoploe pay the price for the dishonest (I've seen owner and service provider examples).

In the business world I live in this is called T&C's (Terms and Conditions). The lawyers love it, honest people think its a hassle, dishonest people use it as a tool to conduct business on the hairy margins of ethics. Every purchase order has one and developing and accepting them is key to protecting yourself. Just read those you get from Apple. Ugh. Anyone running a business needs a good solid set of T&C's for the customer to sign.

Donny, the hobby/market/business needs you. You conduct a dying skill that is becoming harder and harder to find and few skilled people are entering. I hope this was just a rant in frustration and not another step towards the door. I really value your inputs and honesty on the forum and would be sad to see you leave the resto biz to do something else.

Randy

 

[kb67mopar]

I understand both sides of the story here and its why I don't take my car to anybody for work. I understand things pop up that you couldn't see and will require more work that the owner never would have known about either. On the other hand he has a budget that your estimate fell into...and now his budget it blown and there is NO money to give you....

Its a double edged sword and you will win some and lose some. I think more than anything its the dishonest shops that have provided you with customers unwilling to understand a change in price. Shops that tack on things that didn't need to be changed or perform work that isn't authorized and bill you for it anyway...or tell you its going to cost more but when you say no, magically it gets done for the original quoted price.

If I took my car to you and you said my estimate for these services is $2000. And I said sure go ahead. If you came back to me after finding a major hang up and asked, do we proceed...that is one thing and I am happy with that. Now if you just continue with the work without asking if an increase in price is doable...that is another. If work is performed that I did not sign authorization for, I would not expect to pay for it regardless of good intentions. If it was within the agreed upon scope of services then I should not see an increase in price greater than 10% which is law in some states (if i remember right). Also if your estimates are always too low, then you need to re-evaluate your estimating process.

Nobody said business is easy and headache free. And yes we are all dicks because we care (and are somewhat broke because we own mopars)

 

[67 coronet]

i think the media is to blame for the public opinion of auto repair being so bad.dont get me wrong,there are plenty of people in our industry looking to rip people off.my only issue is that,in the last 5 years,everyone thinks they can get repairs for HALF the price given.do you go to the grocery store and offer the cashier half the total when you ring out?i run a large shop for a company that has been in business for 65 plus years.do you think we have been in business that long by ripping people off?NO!but everyone assumes that because the media only talks about the bad shops,never the ones who try to help.
i can see why Donny would get tired of the same crap over and over from every customer.he strikes me as a very reputable guy who is just getting tired of the crap it takes to make it in our industry.

 

[Cranky]

I can also understand both sides of the coin. I used to build engines and rear ends (mainly Mopar only) in a shop that's behind my home and got the "you don't have the overhead as a regular business" line many times. While my prices were already lower than the store front businesses, I wasn't giving away my work either. My reply to them was to take their business elsewhere because if you don't respect my reputation for doing good work and want to pay me peanuts, I'm not going to respect you as a customer. After all, they were here by word of mouth because I never advertised. The worst ones were guys who wanted to make changes to a build just about the time the last bolt got torqued down and then couldn't/wouldn't understand why it would cost extra. And no, the paying customer is NOT the boss. Once we sit down and hash out what the customer needs/wants and agree on what's to be done, I'm the boss. However, I will take phone calls and am flexible but to a point. If the customer wants to make a change and he calls before I'm past the point of no return, I'm game and adjust for the cost of parts or the return of them. If I know I will never be able to use the part for another customer then I let them know up front. For example, a guy wanted a 5.13 gear for his 60 and I told him to make sure he wants that because once I order it, it's his because I don't get requests to set up that steep of a gear and they don't sell very well in the 'already been bought' market. I know it's hard to think of everything but you have to try to. On a side note, I'm kinda glad I'm semi retired because I don't have to deal with it much anymore lol

 

[BeastlyBirdie]

I think the "customer is the boss" refers more to deciding to go with one style of build over another, I.e. solid lifter vs roller, etc. After that, the shop is the boss, within reason. Some of the big problems appear when a shop has no experience in a job, but bid it anyway. Then, upon finding that when a corvette is taken off its frame there's a 99% chance its cracked, they bitch about a customer not wanting to pay up. If they knew what they were looking at, they would have been able to warn the customer that chances are, the body will crack and need repair.
The shops I have worked at always charged to tear down. From the we could see what was needed, not just a guess. If a shop constantly finds there to be huge differences between the estimate and the actual cost, they need help in properly estimating jobs. I'm not saying this applies to anyone here, just my observations on restoration shops that try to turn their hobby into a career.

 

[John L]

Donny,
I'm a self employed contractor, sad to say your just about spot on with your post. I go through many of the same things you describe. Most don't seem to understand the meaning of the word ESTIMATE. It is exactly that a guess as I cannot see through walls or foundations.

 

[conv67bdere]

All you guys - Hunt2Elk, Donny, Cranky - that have stated that they are self employed - my hat's off to you guys ! ! Dealing with the "public" in this day and age is not easy, and for you to have to deal with that on a day to day basis - I can understand how it wears on you.

I see both sides of the story here . . . you guys definitely earn your living ! !

Best wishes to all of you in the future ! !

 

[Donny]

I read the first 8 replies this morning at IHOP, but, didn't feel like hashing out a response on my phone. I read all the replies. I will say that if the Customer was the Boss, then nothing would get done. Someone has to be in charge, and, I have no problem taking charge, and being in charge, and taking the benefits and bruises from being Boss. If you hired an expert -- meaning someone who does what you can't do -- then they should have the right direction for the project. Always giving the customer the variables and courses of action, and a recommendation. This formulae always works! If you're so smart, then you'd be able to do it all yourself. I find it funny that some won't allow another person to work on their car. And, frankly, my feelings are not hurt if people don't like how I think business should be run. And, the example MCR has set to me personally will not change either from a few comments.

I am not plotting my exit from this field, more of a rant. I still love this work, love it and can't believe how lucky I am to be doing all this **** that I just love to do, and do it well. To elaborate on my 'Rant', I have a Corvette in for an underside Plastic Media Blast (PMB), and once I took the body off the frame, the rear most body mounts on the body are cracked big time. They were 'repaired' earlier, but, not a good one. How this got cracked like this is likely done by several factors; two big Bubbas driving it hard, full tank of gas, rough road, and worn out Body Bushings, and a case of beer in the back. This variable was immediately made known to the owner, and he's ok with it, to a degree, but, he used the line that I'm hitting him up for the total cost of the repair job! When I wrote it up, the car was nearly complete -- when I told him what to take off/apart before he brought me the car. But, he readily admitted he ran out of time, and skills to finish taking it apart. He also said he realizes that's added work on my part and of course added costs. I had to refresh him on the details of the contract. We're good now, he payed me. I just don't like this run around all the effin' time! My other Brand X guy got a bill from me the other day, I told him I could swing by and pick up his Roof today as I was downtown by his house, I asked him to leave a check (I should not have to ASK) taped on the box, I got there, and no check! I texted him, he said he didn't want anyone to steal it -- but he left the Roof in the driveway! See the patterns? He said he'd bring it over this week...see why I pre-bill these guys?

I've even had a guy tell me the Body shops charges X for changing out a Fender, why do I charge XX? But, that's another discussion about Body Shops and Resto/Fabricator/Builders and the VAST differences in them. Bottom line, they work for Insurance companies, and get payed 6 hours to do a task, they jam it out in 2, and pocked the rest of the money. I work 6 hours, and get payed (hahahaha) for 6 hours.

T&C is my bread and butter. The only variable I don't promise on, and don't avoid -- I tell them is time if you want it done by a certain date, then I'll try, but, hitting it is not a make or break in this field. You can't hurry this work, if you do, it looks like crap when you're done. Don't forget, I spent 21 yrs on active duty in the US Army. I've seen ALL KINDS of people, and worked with all kinds. Heard and made up every excuse under the sun about anything and everything. How we function was with paper, and terms and conditions. But, we called them Tasks, Conditions and Standards.

The one sector of weasely manners I can't seem to get past is the guy that thinks he can tell me what he thinks something should cost -- the translation is what he's willing to pay and the solution is find another shop, or, dig into your pockets, I'm going to always deliver and do my best.

 

[Cranky]

All you guys - Hunt2Elk, Donny, Cranky - that have stated that they are self employed - my hat's off to you guys ! ! Dealing with the "public" in this day and age is not easy, and for you to have to deal with that on a day to day basis - I can understand how it wears on you.

I see both sides of the story here . . . you guys definitely earn your living ! !

Best wishes to all of you in the future ! !

I also had a 'real' job at a refinery AND owned a furniture store! When did I sleep? Good question. My wife ran the furniture store but I did all the deliveries and pickups and in the middle of all that, I built engines and rear ends AND drag raced. There were many times with the midnight oil was burned well into the wee hours of the morning. Maybe that's why I don't feel like doing much of anything these days! lol

 

[Meep-Meep]

You got every right to bitch Donny and you made some very eye opening points. Just hope the customer can actually get the message.

 

[Runner 68]

I was a project manager by trade for a very large firm for many years. I think most of you independent shop owners could take a class or two in expectation management and communication. A pile of money to be made there if you do it correctly and best of all at the end of the day, nobody is pissed off.

The attitude of "I know all and will do it my way" is a thing of the past. Most of your customers (Yuppies with cash to blow on the type of car they had in high school), are smarter than that. Learn to communicate with them, set and control their expectations then politely pull the cash from their pockets.