Front end suspension adjustment

[Wietse]

I had the car out today for a drive, man that front suspension became a complete different ballgame now!

After my ride i went to check again everything, also got myself a good digital spirit level that shows to 0.1Deg. accurate.
With the ride height sitting at 1" both sides, the passenger side wheel had -0.5 Deg camber, the driver side has +1.0 Deg camber with the adjustment cam bolts maxed out.
Passenger side i had to turn back, so adjustability is not an issue on that side as there is still something left.
But the driver side i am unable to get any improvements...

If i increase the ride height, which to me is good now when just looking at the car stance with the front slightly down, will there be any improvement possible on the camber?

On another note: As you might have seen the other topic on the loose LCA bushing, mine are both loose as well on the pivot shaft.
I did notice the driver side LCA has "slided" back about 1/16 - 1/8" and the torsion bar sits against the circlip on the fixed end while the other end is still clear of the clip.
Pretty sure that this issue is not responsible for the poor camber adjustability but anyway something that needs to be taken care off.

 

[AR67GTX]

Unless I've had too much wine this evening, I think raising the car up will actually increase + camber. Did you use standard upper bushings or off-set Moog bushings?

Not sure I completely follow you on the LCA bushing movement but any movement would only affect caster.

 

[Wietse]

Lol! I've installed my new wheels up front which raised the car a bit more, so for the looks i should lower the ride height again any way.
Hopefully you are correct and this will increase negative camber.
Tomorrow i will lower the ride height with 2cm, i initially measured 25cm (10") below the torsion bar adjuster and after installing the new wheels it increased to 26cm (about 11")
I went from 14" wheels 215/70/14 to 15" 215/65/15 so they increased slightly in diameter.
I've used the bushings that came with the G-Max UCA, they are centred types and do not provide additional adjustment.

Regarding the LCA, it slided in axial direction, forcing the torsion bar all the way back against the circlip.
To me this would indeed only affect caster as well, but still this is another issue that needs to be solved.

 

[Wietse]

Well, i have tried increasing and decreasing the ride height and the driver side wheel gets to +0.8 Deg MAX.
Set the caster to min and max, also no improvements at all.
Even loosened and rotated the the pivot shaft 180Deg in case it was bend or so but made no difference.
Only option left is there is something bend/damaged on the frame itself somewhere...

Out of options i guess so at some point i will have to strip the whole lot again.

 

[miller]

Only option left is there is something bend/damaged on the frame itself somewhere...

Not sure what to tell ya, Wietse. Bummer. Sure sounds like something is out.

Do you know what the 'stock' ride height measurement is? Recommend shooting for that, first, regardless what size tires are on the front. But, if something is out, or bent, it's like shooting yourself in the foot. (I can't think of any reason, what would drive the torsion bars toward the rear.)

If you do bust it all back down, I'd suggest doing both sides, at the same time. Get some basic measurements off the frame, and k-member, to see if it's in. On the floor, compare side to side parts, to look for differences, even though they will be opposite.

 

[Riverdawg]

Late to this thread. While rebuilding my front and switching to discs last year I found my strut rod were slightly bent and the shaft end in th LCA was mushroomed a bit. Just a thought.

 

[Wietse]

Thx for the input guys!

Stock ride height as per manual is 1-7/8", i ended up at approx. 1-5/8" with the car looking stupidly high up front.
I did check if any parts were deformed or not straight but never noticed anything weird.
Another thing i can think of is that the knuckle shaft is bend? (seems unlikely)

 

[furyus]

If you don't fix the lca issue first, you won't ever get your settings correct.

 

[Wietse]

If you don't fix the lca issue first, you won't ever get your settings correct.

The movement of the LCA is in axial direction of the pivot shaft, so this only should make a difference on the caster setting.
I am looking towards something that should be more inwards/outwards of the car.
Think i will remove the wheel and brake rotor and check if the knuckle shaft has a 90Deg angle compared to the machined face.

 

[Cranky]

Typically, as the front end rises the car will see more negative camber. You can see this effect on a lot of drag race cars that get to the point of lifting the front tires off the pavement. Some are worse than others depending on make and alignment settings. ChryCo cars are pretty decent about not changing a bunch throughout the suspension travel and also do petty well on bump steer. If you want to see a car with lousy front end geometry, look at the early Chevy II's leaving the line. Terrible bump steer and camber angles with the front ends in the air and then experience pretty good wobble upon landing lol

 

[Wietse]

Well, i've checked the knuckle shaft and found no difference in angle between the machined surface compared against the rotor flange where the wheels sits against which means no bend shaft.
I've loosened the UCA cam bolts and played around a bit with them but they move as supposed.
I looked at the metal sheet etc. around the UCA anchor points but do not see any distortion or damage that puts it out of place, same for the K-member.
After slacking off the ride height adjuster i was able to knock the torsion bar and LCA back all the way forward.

See the attached pictures, maybe you guys might pick something up that is not normal.

 

[AR67GTX]

See - I had had too much wine. Fortunately Cranky corrected for me.

I know from personal experience that a spindle can get bent - but I see that you have disc brakes and when a spindle gets bent, it's usually impossible to get a brake pad in on one side since the space closes up. So you can probably rule that out.

How level is your garage floor? It can make a difference. You might try reversing the car's direction and take measurements and see if the + and - camber swap from side to side.

 

[Wietse]

Yeah, the brake caliper goes on fine. Even with the new pads installed.

I have done the checks and measurements in different locations as well, but the results are always same.
Always checking ride height first before anything, after any adjustments i take it for a ride to let it all set and check again.
Toe in was set at a skinny 1/8" on both sides.

All looks ok to me, i think that either the LCA is too far inwards or the UCA to far outwards to begin with.
This must be pretty far out as i am getting an +3 Deg positive camber when setting the cam bolts in center.

EDIT: On another note, can there be no differences between different steering knuckles (the arm with the Lower ball joint)??
A different offset or so? As the 2 bolts that secure it to the wheel knuckle are sticking out i am thinking if i would add a spacer in between and see if that makes a difference?

 

[miller]

Post #31, last pic, with the wheel on the ground...am I seeing that right? Heck, I even have one eye closed!

Do you still have the original upper arms? Did you compare lengths between old/new, for the distance?

btw...thanks for the photos, helps a bunch!

 

[Wietse]

I did check the UCA's together but did not measure anything, just a visual.

I did some re-engineering, i found 2 very heavy washers i had left over from the HELL sway bar kit.
Drilled out the holes for the 1/2" bolts that connect the lower ball joint arm and knuckle.
On the picture the bolt was engaged already a full turn so plenty thread goes inside the knuckle for a solid connection.
The washers roughly match the contact surface, so they really only space out the assembly.
I gained a 1.6 Deg negative camber of the bat, after some messing around with adjusting the upper arm i got it set at -0.5 Deg.
When fully turned in i can manage to get over 1.0 Deg negative so still some play left.

The root cause is still not clear, although this fixes the alignment i still want to know what is out of place here.
Is there any other knuckle that would fit in here but causes a problem like this?
Maybe this knuckle came from an older/newer car as parts were not so available as now days.

 

[Ski 61701]

You've mentioned the lca bushings are worn out. Even though you have measured the movement and such, once the car is actually down on the ground, it's going to load that worn out lca bushing quite a bit. Now is it enough to cause you probs with the upper control arms , it might to your extent mmm not sure.
After you make your adjustments, are you putting the car down and rolling forward and backwards at least 10 feet or 4 meters and then when done checking your chamber? What is your caster ?

Since youve added the washer to the lower bolt on the knuckle effectively raising it up. I'd seriously lean on replacing the lca bushings. Have all new suspension parts that way you can rule any variable out, other than the aftermarket upper control arms.

 

[miller]

With the front wheels off, you can still get a measurement off your upper arms. Suggest you verify that, and we'll go from there.

 

[Wietse]

You've mentioned the lca bushings are worn out. Even though you have measured the movement and such, once the car is actually down on the ground, it's going to load that worn out lca bushing quite a bit. Now is it enough to cause you probs with the upper control arms , it might to your extent mmm not sure.
After you make your adjustments, are you putting the car down and rolling forward and backwards at least 10 feet or 4 meters and then when done checking your chamber? What is your caster ?

Since youve added the washer to the lower bolt on the knuckle effectively raising it up. I'd seriously lean on replacing the lca bushings. Have all new suspension parts that way you can rule any variable out, other than the aftermarket upper control arms.

The LCA rubber bushing is new, just the inner steel bushing is not "locked" on the pivot shaft.
There is no clearance, just the bushing and pin do not have an interference fit as the should have.
To me, this only causes the bushing to rotate around the pivot shaft instead of the rubber element taking the torsion. Should be no problem but after summer i will change them anyway.

The washer causes a more "fixed" negative camber angle between the LCA and the knuckle which increases my adjustability towards the negative side, exactly what i need in this case.
All other parts are renewed, Bilstein shocks, LCA bushing, added LCA reinforcement plate, upper and lower ball joint, strut rod bushings, new UCA with new bushings, tie rod assembly's and new wheel bearings.
There is no clearance in any component and is rock solid, just the usual play in the steering box which became the new PITA, but will get a new gearbox from FirmFeel or so to get that sorted...future story to come

@miller: I will get a measurement centre to centre of both arms and see what comes up.
These arms will be manufactured in a fixture with all correct dimensions but who knows, maybe someone was not paying attention on a Monday morning.

 

[miller]

Or, a Friday afternoon.
I'm not one to trust aftermarket parts anyway. But, it measures right, or it don't, or it's the wrong application. That distance will tell you, one way or the other.

You didn't say...is that wheel leaning that much, in the pic?

btw...suspension bushings...how they should work. Outer shell gets pressed into the part, locked into place. Inner sleeve slips into place. Bolts, nuts, and flanges, once tightened down, is what usually locks it down.

 

[Wietse]

It could be a faulty product, that is always possible but i think PST does have a decent QC on their products and if faulty is replaced without questioning.

Yes, the wheel was showing insane positive camber, that was the position with the adjusters in center position on the UCA.
See the picture below how it looks now, that is showing -1.1 Deg now.
I went for a 1/2 hour drive and went for some fuel in between and measuring afterwards there is some difference again but i will re adjust that tomorrow and see again after another drive. (rain just came in)
Still have to double check all fasteners as well if everything is still secure.

And see my new wheels...didn't put the center cap on yet is it is in the way for measuring.

These are the measurement before i went for a drive:

Ride height: 5/8" both sides (should be 1-7/8" but the stance looks good.)
Below adjuster cam: 9-1/4"
Below Lower ball joint: 8-7/8"

Camber: Left: -0.7 Deg
Right: -0.8 Deg

Toe in: 2mm both sides (between 1/16 - 1/8" as per manual)

Caster i cannot measure, but just checked the difference between both LCA and UCA angle and was 0.5 Deg difference between left and right.