HEI Conversion Coil Question

[RJRENTON]

Is there nothing that could fail in a point style system ?

" fancy gizmo don't work" not sure why you would say that ? If by gizmo you mean electronic style ignition , then i am totally confused what your talking about becuase they 100% absolutely do work .

There is no problem using the point style if you are happy with it. BUT if it was a superior design then why did every manufacturer on the planet starting using electronic style ignition system ?

I am genuinely interested as to your hatred for anything but point style system

I don't hate the electronic ignition systems......just the aftermarket stuff seems loaded with failures, either self imposed, by mix matching parts or inferior design or sourced parts......my vehicle, a Cadillac Escalade is loaded with electronics which have been totally trouble free. For an occasional use hobby car, points seem to offer the best solution for reasonable trouble free use.....12000-15000 miles without issue...just install new stuff every few years....just source NOS replacement components...not Chinese stuff.....the reason for electronic ignition systems is...emissions and cost or manufacturing margins....but most retrofitted system claim superior performance.....then the failures enter into the equation.....,but peer pressure (buddies) influences the decision.....90% or the queries about retrofitted electronic ignition systems on the forum deals with unexplainable failures....and bitching about Chinese stuff......just my thoughts and opinions.....
BOB RENTON

 

[1973dodger]

Well that sucks that you gave up on it. But glad to hear you are up and running. I just read threw the entire thread.

I dont think you ever clearly said how you had things wired up. It got very confusing when you started talking about adding diodes. Which you 100% do not need. I don't think you said what coil you were trying either ?

How is your wiring setup now with the FBO unit ? The FBO and the hei use the same wiring ( which is basically just removing the ballast resistor ) .

There are hundred of people that run the HEI conversion successfully, but there are hundreds that have problems to! Basically you just have to match the parts correctly (the correct coil is the key. ) and make sure your wiring is in proper working order.

In the beginning, I fed the hot side of the coil from a subpanel which was hot when key was in on position. In turn, as stated many posts ago, it was backfeeding power to the other circuits while cranking, thus blowing the 10 amp fuse going to the coil from the subpanel. Hense the reason for the diode to stop the flow of current in one direction. Of course that method was a mistake on a few levels, so later. I did away with the diodes and ran a wire from the blue (run) and brown (crank) from the bulkhead, which were tied together and going to the hot side of the coil. Thought for sure I had found the problem multiple times after hours of research using the same logic as yourself which was, "Hundreds of Mopar people have found success using the HEI system" and why can I not get this right? All winter long I struggle with that question to finally I gave up.

To Bob Renton and all the other folks who prefer strictly stock original Mopars. I understand you point concerning modifying the original setup and every modification you do to your Mopar requires two or three other modifications, therefore goes the money, money, money. Firstly, this car did not originally come with points, it was electronic ignition to begin with, so Bob you can keep your old points distributor.(No Offense) Secondly and more importantly to me, if I had of gone with stock I would not have accomplished my original goal which was to fix up a '73 Charger the way I would have liked to have done to my '73 Charger I had when I was 16 years old. Now some 50 years later, I'm living out a childhood dream, learning some lessons the hard way, but in general, having fun.

About the car, it is basically an old school restomod with some modern touches. The engine is far from stock and bearly street-able and yes, I might have gone a little overboard. You may be able to search some of my other threads to find more information about the project if interested.

 

[Sinitro]

I don't hate the electronic ignition systems......just the aftermarket stuff seems loaded with failures, either self imposed, by mix matching parts or inferior design or sourced parts......my vehicle, a Cadillac Escalade is loaded with electronics which have been totally trouble free. For an occasional use hobby car, points seem to offer the best solution for reasonable trouble free use.....12000-15000 miles without issue...just install new stuff every few years....just source NOS replacement components...not Chinese stuff.....the reason for electronic ignition systems is...emissions and cost or manufacturing margins....but most retrofitted system claim superior performance.....then the failures enter into the equation.....,but peer pressure (buddies) influences the decision.....90% or the queries about retrofitted electronic ignition systems on the forum deals with unexplainable failures....and bitching about Chinese stuff......just my thoughts and opinions.....
BOB RENTON

Some very valid points...
To summarize in fewer words..
1. Use matched ignition system components
2. Buy the better quality, original Mopar OE stuff
3. A matched OE electronic system has less maintenance issues than a ignition system with points

Just my $0.02...

 

[RJRENTON]

Some very valid points...
To summarize in fewer words..
1. Use matched ignition system components
2. Buy the better quality, original Mopar OE stuff
3. A matched OE electronic system has less maintenance issues than a ignition system with points

Just my $0.02...

With regard to your synopsis, specifically statement #3, not necessarily entirely true, as there isthe subject of the rotor, distributor cap and advance mechanism (mechanical and vacuum) are prone to require the same maintenance albeit whether the system is points driven or electronic control. A totally static ignition system would be coil on plug type.....no distributor, rotor, cap, advance mechanism, points, etc. The basic problem is too many "seat of the pants" guesstimates as to system component compatibility promoted by people, owners, friends, buddies, relatives, that have NO REAL CLUE, how the automotive ignition system operates.....
just my opinion.....
BOB RENTON

 

[Sinitro]

With regard to your synopsis, specifically statement #3, not necessarily entirely true, as there isthe subject of the rotor, distributor cap and advance mechanism (mechanical and vacuum) are prone to require the same maintenance albeit whether the system is points driven or electronic control. A totally static ignition system would be coil on plug type.....no distributor, rotor, cap, advance mechanism, points, etc. The basic problem is too many "seat of the pants" guesstimates as to system component compatibility promoted by people, owners, friends, buddies, relatives, that have NO REAL CLUE, how the automotive ignition system operates.....
just my opinion.....
BOB RENTON

Hmmm...
One can debate about statement 3...
But it was apparent when the major global automotive brands went to the electronic ignition system over the traditional points, even @ a higher $$ cost they confirmed its advantages. Electronic ignition systems have increased reliability, decreased maintenance and improved engine performance. As points systems are more prone to wear and require frequent adjustment. Electronic ignition systems provide closer control of spark, longer life-span, and when teamed up with fuel injection lower emission.

Just my $0.02...

 

[RJRENTON]

Hmmm...
One can debate about statement 3...
But it was apparent when the major global automotive brands went to the electronic ignition system over the traditional points, even @ a higher $$ cost they confirmed its advantages. Electronic ignition systems have increased reliability, decreased maintenance and improved engine performance. As points systems are more prone to wear and require frequent adjustment. Electronic ignition systems provide closer control of spark, longer life-span, and when teamed up with fuel injection lower emission.

Just my $0.02...

I'm prepared to do so......The system that generates the spark......albeit electonic or points..is not relevant......the longevity of the spark plugs is directly proportional to the plugs design....electrode configuration, type, insulator design, heat range, engine parameters, use. Frequent adjustments of Point cap??? Not necessary for 12000-15000 miles, unless the owner is a nit picker, constantly fussing with things that doesn't matter....ie, 0.001"-0.002" point gap change due to wear (depending on brand of points used)......for my RS23V0A ****** GTX, I change points every three years....without any "frequent adjustments".....without any loss of performance. Longer life is directly attributable to the use of unleaded fuel. However, when a malfunction does occur, point and condenser systems are far cheaper to fix than Electronic ignition systems are......not a fair comparison......but....Electronic ignition systems (and computer controlled systems in general) contribute to lower emissions......just my opinion and thoughts......
BOB RENTON

 

[Sinitro]

I'm prepared to do so......The system that generates the spark......albeit electonic or points..is not relevant......the longevity of the spark plugs is directly proportional to the plugs design....electrode configuration, type, insulator design, heat range, engine parameters, use. Frequent adjustments of Point cap??? Not necessary for 12000-15000 miles, unless the owner is a nit picker, constantly fussing with things that doesn't matter....ie, 0.001"-0.002" point gap change due to wear (depending on brand of points used)......for my RS23V0A ****** GTX, I change points every three years....without any "frequent adjustments".....without any loss of performance. Longer life is directly attributable to the use of unleaded fuel. However, when a malfunction does occur, point and condenser systems are far cheaper to fix than Electronic ignition systems are......not a fair comparison......but....Electronic ignition systems (and computer controlled systems in general) contribute to lower emissions......just my opinion and thoughts......
BOB RENTON

The major downside of points is their pitting of contacts and rubbing block wear..
The average driven milage per year is about 14,000 miles so if one is running points
these must be changed each year.... You mentioned changing yours every 3 years so you
only must drive less than 5000 miles a year. A electronics distributor with a reluctor magnetic or
opto pickup has no internal points, no contact with the distributor shaft so it maintains a fixed dwell
without any latency in timing and can run for many 000s' of miles or even multiple years.

Just my $0.02...

 

[Canadian1968]

In the beginning, I fed the hot side of the coil from a subpanel which was hot when key was in on position. In turn, as stated many posts ago, it was backfeeding power to the other circuits while cranking, thus blowing the 10 amp fuse going to the coil from the subpanel. Hense the reason for the diode to stop the flow of current in one direction. Of course that method was a mistake on a few levels, so later. I did away with the diodes and ran a wire from the blue (run) and brown (crank) from the bulkhead, which were tied together and going to the hot side of the coil. Thought for sure I had found the problem multiple times after hours of research using the same logic as yourself which was, "Hundreds of Mopar people have found success using the HEI system" and why can I not get this right? All winter long I struggle with that question to finally I gave up.

To Bob Renton and all the other folks who prefer strictly stock original Mopars. I understand you point concerning modifying the original setup and every modification you do to your Mopar requires two or three other modifications, therefore goes the money, money, money. Firstly, this car did not originally come with points, it was electronic ignition to begin with, so Bob you can keep your old points distributor.(No Offense) Secondly and more importantly to me, if I had of gone with stock I would not have accomplished my original goal which was to fix up a '73 Charger the way I would have liked to have done to my '73 Charger I had when I was 16 years old. Now some 50 years later, I'm living out a childhood dream, learning some lessons the hard way, but in general, having fun.

About the car, it is basically an old school restomod with some modern touches. The engine is far from stock and bearly street-able and yes, I might have gone a little overboard. You may be able to search some of my other threads to find more information about the project if interested.

ok you powered the Coil with the crank and run wires, how did you power module ??

And what is the current wiring for your FBO setup?

I always like the idea of the rev limiter on the FBO system !

 

[RJRENTON]

The major downside of points is their pitting of contacts and rubbing block wear..
The average driven milage per year is about 14,000 miles so if one is running points
these must be changed each year.... You mentioned changing yours every 3 years so you
only must drive less than 5000 miles a year. A electronics distributor with a reluctor magnetic or
opto pickup has no internal points, no contact with the distributor shaft so it maintains a fixed dwell
without any latency in timing and can run for many 000s' of miles or even multiple years.

Just my $0.02...

I'm well aware of how an electronic ignition systems operates. BTW....In an electronic ignition system, a MOPAR specific unit, Dwell is determined by analysis internal timing circuit, powered by the negative going pulses from the puck up coil AND a programmable network that looks at coil discharge time to determine how soon after the spark occurs, can the coil recharge for the next firing pulse. An opto isolation device is the same principle just the pulse generator but looks differently as in Pertronix using a Hall device to determine the when the pulse occurs in addition to switching the coil primary current flow. The PRESTOLITE DUAL POINT DISTRIBUTOR in my original 440+6 barrel RS23V0A****** (one of 350 4 speed cars ever built...out of 678 total production) sees about 2000-4000 miles/year......plus it's original to the car and looks like it belongs there in both function and performance.....it's just a hobby car.....it does not need all the retrofitted electronic ignition systems and that everyone seems to want/need.......check out my photo garage...RJ's Toy......just my thoughts....
BOB RENTON

 

[Sinitro]

I'm well aware of how an electronic ignition systems operates. BTW....In an electronic ignition system, a MOPAR specific unit, Dwell is determined by analysis internal timing circuit, powered by the negative going pulses from the puck up coil AND a programmable network that looks at coil discharge time to determine how soon after the spark occurs, can the coil recharge for the next firing pulse. An opto isolation device is the same principle just the pulse generator but looks differently as in Pertronix using a Hall device to determine the when the pulse occurs in addition to switching the coil primary current flow. The PRESTOLITE DUAL POINT DISTRIBUTOR in my original 440+6 barrel RS23V0A****** (one of 350 4 speed cars ever built...out of 678 total production) sees about 2000-4000 miles/year......plus it's original to the car and looks like it belongs there in both function and performance.....it's just a hobby car.....it does not need all the retrofitted electronic ignition systems and that everyone seems to want/need.......check out my photo garage...RJ's Toy......just my thoughts....
BOB RENTON

Many thanx for your explanation...
I understand very well about how the automotive electronic ignition system works as I have been
designing automotive electronic systems for many years, working for some of the major automotive brands.
Plus having received multiple patents...

Just my $0.02...