Help- enginensiezing when trans mounted.

[Malicious]

I'm honestly at my wits end. I am constantly getting fkd by this thing. After spending way to much on heads to fix a broken stud problem I'm now getting screwed by the trans and the rotating assembly!

So before swapping the heads the engine turned freely and I had lined up the trans with converter, bolted it together, no problems. But I have the wrong toque converter bolts, so I get the right ones in, went to bolt it up again, then the bolt pattern didn't match. No stress I figure that it has an offset pattern. But I need to swap the heads so I left it together to replace the heads.

After cleaning up the new heads I've installed them. Now the only other thing I have done is remove the oil pump gear so I can prime the engine before starting.

I've just tried to mount the trans, matched up the flex plate pattern no problems. When I went to match up the trans the problems started. First I couldn't get the trans to actually mount. It lines up but the bolt gets extremely tight with stil maybe .5" of a gap. To help line up the flex to torque converter I'd slip a bolt in through the inspection plate. I thought that might be the problem, but the bolt spun freely.

Confused I pull it apart, all looks good. Stil confuse I thought maybe the angle of the engine to trans. So I mess around with the angle no success.

During this I turn the engine over by hand and I start hearing a scrapping. From what I can tell its coming from the timing cover. It's only just started, no idea what it is. I thought I would deal with it later and I proceed to try the trans again with an extra set of eyes.

This time as I'm tightening the bolts I get a loud metal 'crang' then the bolts are ok. Tightens up ok, so I thought I might be just a miss alignment. Tighten it all up, no probs. go to turn the engine over by hand, nothing. The engine is now seized.

Panicking, I rip the trans off again. Now the engine turns again but I'm getting the scrapping still.

Finally my question, what the heck is going on???? What have I done wrong? Can I fix it?

I'm in serious need of help, any advice is appreciated.

 

[dryheat]

I feel some of you pain cuz I got confused just reading what you were going through ...

Is the torque converter seated fully into the trans? When the trans is bolted to the block you should be able to spin the converter easily before you bolt it to the flex plate. If not that "crang" you heard could be something really ugly to fix.

The noise from the font timing cover is really odd too ... almost like the CAM slid (or was pushed) forward and the timing chain is grinding against it.

 

[66Satellite47]

When you are putting the trans up to the motor, it sounds like you didn't get the converter all the way into the trans front pump. there are two slots in the converter snout that engage the trans front pump. When putting the converter into the trans you need to rotate the converter while pushing lightly backward until you get a "clunk" and the converter slides back 3/4". With the trans bolted to the block, you should be able to rotate the converter freely. Hopefully you marked the converter and flex plate both in the correct position, one of the bolt holes is offset. I always put the flex up to the converter where I can see them, line up all the bolt holes and give a shot of paint on the engine side of the flex and converter by one of the bolts so you can see it when you go to bolt the converter to flex. You can get up to three bolts lined up & not the fourth. Then you need to remove the converter to flex bolts & do trial & error until they all line up. Hope the loud metal "crang" wasn't the drive tang in the trans front pump breaking. When you say the scraping sound is coming from the "timing cover", you mean the front of the motor? When the motor won't turn I suspect you've not got the converter all the way into the trans. As you slide the converter back into the trans and turn it there is a very distinct "thud" and movement of the converter back into the trans. Good luck. BTW most of us have made that mistake!

 

[Malicious]

Thanks for the help, I've got a mate dropping by tomorrow so I'll go over it all again with fresh eyes.

With the converter, I have got the second spline engaged I think, as it is sitting in the .5" the FSM suggests so I thought I was ok there. How do I work out how to align the two slots in the converter? When I first installed the converter I looked but couldn't see any thing that they engaged with?

The male piece in the converter that slips in the crank worries me, it seams like it might be too big? Speculation though.

I have managed to get the converter and flex lined up. That's easy now compared to the rest.

I agree on the cam movement, I'm going to have to strip the front of the engine to investigate at the moment.

With the possible damage to the trans, is there any way I can check? All I've done to the trans is swap the filter.

I should also mention that's the trans and converter came with the car.

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Sorry should also say the trans spun freeley with the converter installed. Just not once it was installed in the engine.

 

[miller]

Your going about stabbing the converter/trans the wrong way. Do you have the converter bolted to the flexplate first?

If so, you could actually warp the flexplate, from the weight of the converter!

The lug at the front of the converter is for centering with the crank. Yeah, it should slip in easily.

You stab the converter into the trans first. Yeah, it will sit there. You can reach in to the trans front pump, and turn the drive dogs to line them how you want. Then stab the converter into the trans, making sure the slots line up with the dogs.

Need to mark the offset bolt holes on both the flexplate, and converter. I usually rotate both engine and converter, putting the marked holes at the bottom.
Then, you stab the trans to the motor. With the trans case bolted to the engine block, you should have a 1/4" space between the converter, and flexplate, and converter should simply push forward to close the gap.

But, for now, better find out where the motor noise is coming from. Seems you put something in a bind.

 

[71airgrabberRR]

On some stock factory flex plate there will be a small hole located in between two of the crankshaft mounting holes. This hole will be about 1/8" in diameter. This was used to index the converter. The drain plug on the converter would go 180 degrees opposite of the small hole I mentioned. This allows the converter bolts to properly line up to the flex plate since they are offset. Then you can mark it however you please.

As far as the engine problem I would suspect the thrust bearing may be your culprit. I have seen several engines run with a lot of excess side play clearance that allowed the crankshaft to move forward and back. One engine had almost 1/4 inch of excess end play and still didn't make a noise !!!!!

Hope this helps.

 

[71airgrabberRR]

Here is a picture of the hole in the factory flex plate I mentioned above. This hole goes just opposite of the drain plug on the converter.

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As you can see from the picture it's not in between two of the crankshaft mounting bolts like I originally posted. Sorry for any confusion.

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In the last two pictures I'm showing you what the drain plug will look like on most converters. Hope it helps.

 

[Malicious]

Thanks guys. I am mounting the converter to the tans first then lining up and installing the auto onto the engine. It is engaging both splines and is in as far as the FSM suggests. On a side note my converter doesn't have a drain plug.

Here's some pics:


I have run a screw driver around the trans spline and there are no notces for the two cut outs on the converter to line up to. I'm a bit worried that this might not be the right converter?

Also, with the trust bearing, if it is that, what is the fix? I was hoping to avoid tearing the front of the engine apart but it looks like I'm going to have to...

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Also I should mention, every time I have mounted the trans I have not been able to spin the converter. It has always been pressed up to the flexplate tight enough that I can't spin it even through it has been engaged on both splines. Previously it would rotat with the engine when spun by hand, obviously the last time it seized the engine so that is different.

 

[66Satellite47]

The two tangs for the front pump are not very visible because of the front seal where the converter slides in. You can be engaged in the two sets of splines you can see but not be in all the way. Slide the converter on to both sets of splines then rotate the converter with a small amount of push toward the trans and wiggling it a bit. Keep doing that slowly until you feel the converter pop back further in. The .5 inches is not nearly enough to be in all the way. It sure looks like a Mopar converter & they're all the same except the diameter. Yours looks like a 10"? The hub that goes into the crank is almost certainly the correct size. You just don't have the converter all the way home in the trans.

 

[Malicious]

So the trans is fkd. Pulled the front deal and found two sheered teeth that the converter would have engaged. I was sure when I first installed it that it had nothing to engage. So I may have got it that way, however it's just as likely I did it.

Into the engine, any ideas before I strip the front of the engine down?

 

[Malicious]

So some good news. The scrapping from the timing cover was from the pulley bolts scrapping in the timing chain cover.

Word of warning, the bolts you 'have' to have for the 440 source billet pulley kit are TOO LONG. Why the hell you would warn people they have to use your bolts then supply bolts that are wrong is fkn beyond me.

The front end of the engine is going back together now. With the trans in current state I think my chances of getting it driving in the next 6 weeks are pretty low along with my funds.

I did find a new oil pump gear for sale in evil-bay for $90, how hard is it to swap the pump gears over?

 

[71airgrabberRR]

The long pulley bolt problem was a good find. I'm glad it worked out for you.

I had a similar problem at the "other" end once. The "Mr. Gasket" flywheel bolts I used were too long and actually cracked the aluminum rear seal mount. My engine wouldn't turn over either. I ended up buying a set of grade 8 bolts from a local bolt supply company. (and replacing the rear main seal support)

As far as the front pump replacement, I'd recommend taking it to a transmission shop. They may even have a spare pump assembly laying around before you buy something sight unseen from Ebay. There is a bronze bushing that the converter rides on and if it's worn you will have a bad transmission fluid leak in no time, (might even happen during the initial start up) If the bushing is bad you WILL wipe out the front seal VERY quickly................... Most reputable shops will replace the bushing before they install the pump housing. It's cheap insurance.

There are a few large metal rings that need to be compressed as you insert the pump housing into the case. Plus if memory serves me correctly, you will need two long bolts to guide the pump body into the case housing. The transmission is easier to work on with it standing upright on the tail shaft end when you go to install the pump. Take care not to damage the output shaft rear seal when you stand it on end. A second set of hands is helpful here if you don't have the correct holding fixture. While you have the transmission in this position go ahead and install the converter.

Better yet, let the transmission shop do that too. Then have them wire it in place so it doesn't slide forward or you will be right back to square one. Make sure the seals are greased too.

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BTW, in regards to the front pump bushing again................... If it's bad, you can wipe out the converter too.

Are you running a "Cast" crank ???? If so, your converter should have two fairly good sized weights on it.

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It looks like you have a cast crank flex plate.

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These engines are externally balanced.

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Here are a few pictures I found online showing the pump and what's behind it. They have a book out on how to rebuild a Torque flight. If your serious about doing it yourself, I would get the book.

 

[Malicious]

Yeah that sounds like it's out of my league. Happy to try and learn but when I'm on a tighter deadline then I'm more likely to screw it up then fix. Going to call around a few trans shops on Tuesday (public holiday in Monday) see what I'm up for. I know I can get a standard rebuild for $1200 just not sure I can squeeze that out before we have to move.

I've got a cast crank, brought an external balance fly wheel. Do I still need a converter with balance weights? I haven't seen any of those before in my internet searching...

So then it comes down to do I mount every thing in the car with the busted trans to move it and replace it later after the move or do I just install the k-frame and instal the engine and trans later from the top?

 

[66Satellite47]

The front pump drive tangs snapping was the noise you heard while trying to force the trans up to the block. If you can find a book with the exploded diagram of the 727 components, stare at it awhile. They are really pretty simple. Fixing the pump doesn't require taking much apart. Like grabber said a shop can do it quick. I also agree with a new bushing & seal. Looking at the picture of the converter I'd also take some fine emery cloth to the snout to polish that up some. Wish you were nearby, I'd have pump fixed in an hour. If you can find someone to show you how to rebuild a 727 it's worth your time. Good luck!

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Yeah that sounds like it's out of my league. Happy to try and learn but when I'm on a tighter deadline then I'm more likely to screw it up then fix. Going to call around a few trans shops on Tuesday (public holiday in Monday) see what I'm up for. I know I can get a standard rebuild for $1200 just not sure I can squeeze that out before we have to move.

I've got a cast crank, brought an external balance fly wheel. Do I still need a converter with balance weights? I haven't seen any of those before in my internet searching...

So then it comes down to do I mount every thing in the car with the busted trans to move it and replace it later after the move or do I just install the k-frame and instal the engine and trans later from the top?

Don't rush it, check to see if somebody with experience can help. If you mean flex plate not "fly wheel" , it looks like you've got the right part. The "half moon" cutout in the full circle flex plate is probably the "converter balance weight". I haven't seen one like that for many years, but I think that's how B&M addressed the cast crank balance instead of on the converter like the factory did.

 

[Malicious]

Cheer mate, doing pretty much all of this solo. I dont know anyone that owns and works on their own mopar. They're pretty rare down here.

 

[66Satellite47]

I'll PM you with a few suggestions.

 

[miller]

Just off top of head, the 727 pump and housing come in two different types of pumps. You need to know what year trans, to get the correct pump. Like the other guys said, the pump is an easy fix...just a matter of having an idea how to do it. At least look online, if you can, for rebuilding a 727. It will show all you ever wanted to know about the pumps, and the lugs that were broken.

As far as your converter, if it's the right one, do a 'dry' install on both the trans, and the back end of the crank, to be sure it fits, all the way without binding.

Heck! We all had to learn all this stuff.

 

[66Satellite47]

Having an experienced eye look at the insides is a good idea. Best if you can find a shop that has experience with HP or modified TF's in case yours is "non-stock".

 

[Malicious]

Thanks for all the help guys, really appreciate you all sorting this novice out.

I have the trans fixed, found a guy that did it fairly cheap. I have had to polish up the converter stub as it had some surface rust on it, so the strand guy didn't install it for me. I've got it al ready to go, I just want to triple check that the converter is engaged properly. Does this look right?

 

[miller]

Yup!

Just mark the offset bolt holes, for ease of finding, once trans is mounted up. Should have to slide the converter to the flexplate, once trans is bolted up. Got fingers crossed!!!