4mulas
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From the internet and a lot of research I have done previously..
Holley Sniper EFI and Hyperspark. Help needed.
- Thread starter BeepBeepRR
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4mulas
Well-Known Member
- Local time
- 9:56 AM
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2017
- Messages
- 1,922
- Reaction score
- 2,071
- Location
- Just North of Montana
Considering the rest of your investment, if it were me I’d probably buy the brand name Bosch, who is YCT?
Bosch 17025 is what is recommended on the forums as a replacement. I very seriously doubt Holley manufacturers any o2 sensors. Even their website says it is a Bosch brand.
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
I will just order one from here its a little bit more money but its the bosch. https://www.efisystempro.com/wbo2-sensor-sniper-tbi-554-155
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
OK like in the last video I posted I unplugged the o2 sensor and fired it up and it ran great. So apparently the 02 is definitely the issue. I drove it around the block and not one ounce of issues. So I'm just going to order the O2 sensor posted above.
rmchrgr
Well-Known Member
You could have a bad ECU. Call Holley and see what they say before spending any more money on replacement sensors.
https://forums.holley.com/showthread.php?21085-Oxygen-Sensor-Fails-way-too-early
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
If the new O2 sensor doesn't fix it I will do that.
Sweet5ltr
Well-Known Member
Not hard at all to kill an 02-sensor on a non-OEM application.
https://www.nzefi.com/bosch-lsu-wid...l-often-aftermarket-performance-applications/
I've killed MANY, enough where I essentially have a spare in the garage. Didn't notice a difference from NGK, Bosch, or any of the various manufactures I've tested. I'm running one now off Amazon, for $35 it had an identical reading as the NGK. 200-miles on it so far.
Sweet5ltr
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure you're looking at my file, or at least, a copy of it from a few years ago. Created a document which included all the spare parts (non-Holley, OEM) on the Holley Sniper EFI Owners Group on FB before I was banned (by Facebook).
My system inevitably had an ECU failure in under 500-miles, and the car was towed home twice during that time period. The Hyperspark Distributor Holley shipped out for the 383/400 B-engines had an incorrect shaft length (too short), had to send multiple distributors to MSD for them to acknowledge this was a production line issue and they corrected it (which they never sent out a notice or disclaimer to other owners).
Went back to a Holley Ultra XP carburetor and just made a 300-mile trip this past weekend.
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rmchrgr
Well-Known Member
Not doubting that it didn't happen to you but I still can't wrap my head around it. I've had 02 sensors in several "old" cars I've owned that were or are still running either an AFR gauge or EFI and none of them have failed.
In a past life I was a Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge/Hyundai dealership tech as well. Cars would come in with code XYZ and guys would inevitably replace 02 sensors, clear the code and send the car down the road. Replacing the sensor is easy. But 2 days later they would be fixing it for free again because the code came back. Invariably the 02 wasn't the problem, it was an exhaust or intake leak or something.
What happens when they do actually fail is they stop switching and the data becomes "lazy" or slow to react to the exhaust conditions. The PCM gets out of range voltage signals and compensates accordingly which sets the code. The thing that was difficult about that was it would still read just not accurately. Even that situation was almost always associated with some other mitigating condition though.
Generally 02 sensors fail because they become contaminated. The article pointed to "thermal shock" due to condensation. That has to do with the angle of how the sensor is installed. Almost all aftermarket EFI systems and AFR gauges instruct you to put the 02 close to the collector and give you a diagram of how to clock it. The sensor needs to be installed at 10:00 or 2:00 so they drain which helps to prevent these issues. If you have your sensors mounted at 9:00 or 3:00 or below then yeah, they will fail. Or if you use leaded fuel or octane booster crap or what have you. All bad for 02s.
Have to drive the car as well. Get it up to operating temps and drive the thing. Putting it around for five minutes is not enough. Take it out for at least 20-30 minutes at a time, get the oil thinned out and the exhaust cleaned out of any moisture. Short trips create excess condensation leading to the production of acid which obviously will eat parts pretty quickly.
The heating element is only supposed to be heating for a few seconds when the ECU is switched on. It should start reading as soon as the engine starts cranking. If you're doing something where the 02 is on and heating and the car is not running that could be another issue but that seems unlikely. A failed heating element will most likely be caused a burned wire, not the element itself.
What can make these retrofit EFI systems difficult to diagnose is RFI. Most guys may not know how to check for it but it's not hard. Open a data log in the software and right click so a dropdown menu appears on screen. Towards the bottom of the menu there's an option to "mark data points". Select that and then magnify the AFR trace to where you can see the points clearly separated. If you see long gaps between points in the trace you can be reasonably sure you have an RFI problem.
RFI does all sorts of unwanted crap. It can actually make the sensors reset to zero which would obviously make things look like they're not working correctly. That said, if you find that condition in one trace the other data traces will presumably show the same thing so you can make the leap that the entire program is affected by it. It's like a static-y radio or TV reception. You can kinda hear or see stuff but it's noisy and unclear.
Getting rid of RFI can be difficult. There are lots of places for it to happen because there's always more than one spot where wires cross or one of the ECU harnesses is close to something like a canister coil that has magnetic pulses. I've read where the air cleaner stud can be a big antenna. What do you do in that situation?
Holley makes a big deal about "clean" power. They want you to run the ECU power and ground DIRECTLY to the battery posts. That's not always practical though and if you have to tie those wires in to something that feeds other electronic devices besides the ECU you increase the chances of RFI dramatically.
Just food for thought, take it for what it's worth.
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
Should have the new 02 sensor in the next day or so. Hopefully that is the issue and not the ECU. Replacing the 02 on my friends GTX worked. So maybe that's all it is. If not I will be shipping the sniper back to them. I Do not believe the sniper is at fault but who the hell knows.
Sweet5ltr
Well-Known Member
Well look at it this way, it can't hurt to swap the 02-sensor. If that's not the problem, you'll have a spare.
RMCHRGR spoke a bit on this yesterday, how he can't really understand why 02-sensors fail. To be completely honest, I find it hard to believe as well, although it's happened three or four times over the past five years and the 02-sensor recently failed on my W200 within 5,000 miles; which really surprised me. This truck idles at 14:1 AFR, cruises at 15:1 AFR, and has a WOT AFR around 12.3-12.6:1. This is about as close as I can get to a near perfect tune with a carburetor. My guess is, we heat the 02-sensor while cranking and this caused the failure (thermal shock). This truck is parked outside, not in a climate controlled garage, and is driven daily.
My thoughts on this issue, the Holley Sniper EFI is heating up the 02-sensor while cranking. Condensation is the enemy of these sensors, and why the proper orientation is critical. Still, cold water on a hot sensor is going to cause problems.
Dive into the article I posted above and it shows how far the automakers go to control an 02-sensor during startup. Now I'm not sure if Holley could postpone the heating process or lower the power until after the engine has started running for ten to fifteen seconds, but this could be one of the issues.
Using a wideband is a bit different, as we can opt to not immediately heat the 02-sensor until after the engine has started, and the exhaust is clear of condensation. I've heard both sides of this, one says the 02-sensor MUST be heated prior to cranking, the other says you'll destroy the 02-sensor prematurely if you have cold condensation in the exhaust with the heated sensor (which is my opinion).
After looking more into this, you'll also find that 02-sensor life can be impacted by the air-to-fuel ratio (below 0.95 lambda). I wasn't aware of this, because 0.95 lambda isn't very rich, around 13.9:1 AFR.
At the end of the day, I just carry a spare in the trunk. That's the simple solution, and for the cost, I'm not really too concerned about it.
- Here is the official statement from Bosch -
4.3.2 System measures:
- Never switch on sensor heating resp. control unit before engine start
- Delay of sensor heater start or reduced heater power (see section 1.6)
https://www.ecotrons.com/files/Bosch_LSU49_Tech_Info.pdf
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cdr
Well-Known Member
This is made by Innovate, the guy that runs the Holley EFI forum HIGHLY recomends AND uses them himself, I use them, my o2 on my wideband Innovate, kept going bad, a 4.2 Bosch o2, put this on both my Holley HP NTK sensor & the wide band, been 2 years now & lots of driving, all good,
Heat-Sink Bung Extender (HBX-1) - P/N: 37290
Heat-Sink Bung Extender (HBX-1) - P/N: 37290
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
Installed the new Bosch O2 sensor and fired it up and its running great again. AFR is at 13.5% Im a little worried though I was looking at the IAC and its saying 20% I tried adjusting it as the video says but that's the lowest number I could get out of it. But I also just started a brand new tune so that may have something to do with it.
cdr
Well-Known Member
What # do they want, 20% is about right for most systems
rmchrgr
Well-Known Member
Actually that number is between 1-5% and best with 1 or 2 but it can be tricky to get it to stay there consistently. Think of it like the transfer slot on a carburetor. Ideally you only want a little bit of the slot showing, .020" is the number I've always used. Not all combos will be able to achieve proper idle with it like that but .020" is generally where you start.
To the OP, are you using the software on a laptop or doing everything through the handheld? The handheld is pretty limited, the software will help illuminate things better.
To me EFI is way less efficient without the software because you're just guessing at what the tune is. You could be leaving power and/or economy on the table.
The target AFR table is the heart of everything so your 13 reading could be whatever you want it to be for a given rpm and/or load. That is unless something like an intake or exhaust leak or other problem prevents the ECU from correlating it.
Some may be OK without the software that but for me things changed pretty dramatically when I figured out how to build a custom tune.
cdr
Well-Known Member
I get all that
my Charger, street car, most EFI want the IAC in the 20% range, to the OP, what does the manufacture of YOUR EFI want for the IAC at idle ????
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
I am suspecting I have a vacuum leak around the intake. Ever since I installed the new cam the brakes are stiffer than a preachers pecker. I think that may be the culprit. I was looking for an aluminum 383 intake dual plane. It has a toker 383 on it now but I also heard Snipers do not like single plane intakes. However, It has been running with the single plane just fine. I suspect a vacuum leak. I used a propane torch bottle to see if I could find the source. But I have not.
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
When you watch the video on how to set the IAC it says to get it as low as possible. In the 5% range. But im stuck solid at 20% Was at 56% then turned the idle screw down. And reset the computer so the TPS would 0 back out. Did this several times and I can't get lower than 20. Crap... After re-watching the video I missed a step. I did not disable the idle spark. Guess I'm going back out there before I end up pulling the intake.I get all that
View attachment 1203035
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rmchrgr
Well-Known Member
I get all that
View attachment 1203035
Like I said, between 1-5%. I have a Sniper myself. That's what you want.
And again, if you can't get the AFR to stay at what's commanded then like the OP is now grasping there is something preventing it from happening. I'll say I have had a similar issue myself with exhaust leaks. When I first started the tuning process, the headers and exhaust were nice and tight. With more heat cycles things loosened up a bit and the AFR became inconsistent. Tightened up the connections, problem solved. Honestly, I still battle with it, just the nature of the beast - the headers just don't seal as well as they should. Find the intake or exhaust leak and things will smooth out.
And as I stated earlier in the thread, the 02 was the least likely culprit here. Suppose it could have become contaminated if there was enough unburned fuel in the exhaust but that wasn't the fault of the 02, it was a result of an out-of-range condition upstream.
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