HYD. Roller lifters , which one?

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  1. Dodge 330

    Dodge 330 Well-Known Member

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    Howards wants their operation limited to 6500. My limiter is set at 6400.

    They are truly a zero maintenance setup and if you didn't know better, you would swear it was a 440 with a slightly large hydraulic cam.
     
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    • 33 IMP

      33 IMP FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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      @biomedtechguy , on your pontiac, do you know if the lifter diameter is the same as a chevy? If so, those lifters have had a LOT of r&d. They would also be much less in diameter than a mopar lifter. A large lifter diameter is an advantage for a flat tappet engine, but with the extra weight of a aftermarket hyd roller, maybe that is causing the lower rpm limits, and durability questions?
       
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      • Dan64

        Dan64 Well-Known Member

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        That would be great, thank you. Gatorman has a web site with pics i could compare with.
         
      • Dan64

        Dan64 Well-Known Member

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        No Barry, they told me i didn't need to bush them to run hyd. rollers and that the bores checked out ok but i guess i'll find out if both of those are correct.
         
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        • Dan64

          Dan64 Well-Known Member

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          Trick Flow sells a 270 top end package with a hyd. roller cam and lifters. It made about 687? hp at around 6800-6850 according to their dyno chart ( yes, they are trying to sell us something) I'm hearing that Trick Flow lifters are really Howard's and that Howard's are Murel street rollers. Anyone know how accurate this is?. Dodge 330 what size is your motor and cam?.
           
        • 440rb

          440rb Well-Known Member

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          I'm not 1 to pick mistakes in threads, but it makes a big difference that it actually showed 687hp@5800 more in the hyd. roller safe zone?....notice the cam spec went up to .640" with 1.6 rockers.
           
          Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
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          • biomedtechguy

            biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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            Diameter is the same, but the height of a Pontiac lifter is taller, thus heavier. So as far as R&D goes, I don't know how much has gone into the Pontiac specific lifters in the 421. The cam is .508/.510 lift intake and exhaust (from what I've read in AndyF's book on Mopar big blocks, the intake is usually favored with more lift, but the valves on the 421 are tiny by comparison, so maybe that's why the builder gave a bit more lift to the exhaust?)
            EDIT: 857-16 is the part number for the hydraulic roller lifters in the Pontiac 421.
            https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-857-16
            Looks like a Pontiac/Oldsmobile ONLY retrofit. 136g Weight│2.47” Seat Height
            Chevy: same specs...
             
            Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
          • Tex013

            Tex013 Well-Known Member

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            this is a maybe sometimes . Lobe ramp plays a huge input . Quite often a hyd ramp is too fast/steep to let you run a solid .

            Tex
             
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            • Dan64

              Dan64 Well-Known Member

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              Yes , you are right ,big difference . Help me understand this, they used 1.6 to raise the lift to get more hp but wouldn't that make it more likely for the lifter to get unstable at that fast of a ramp up and down with a hyd. roller?. That also brings us back to the oil problem with the higher lift if my thinking is correct. Seems like the duration of 243/247 is on the small size ,no?. We see they list the basic operating range of this cam, intake and head package @ 3000 to 6500 rpm but i guess their own test suggest otherwise. The good news for me is that if their build is anywhere close to the advertised 687 hp then i'm hoping i should be ok hitting my target 625 +/- in a reliable motor.
               
            • Dan64

              Dan64 Well-Known Member

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              If I can run the Morel hi-rpm at .20 from the bottom ( not sure if that ok to do yet) wouldn't that more or less make the hyd. roller act more like a solid roller but have the benefit of the roller being able to follow the cam lobe without digging in?.
               
            • biomedtechguy

              biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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              With my limited knowledge of the details of what it takes to build a balanced package of parts for a Mopar stroker motor, I can tell you that I was looking for 600HP and 6XX torque from a 505 with a 6bbl dual plane Edelbrock/Chrysler aluminum intake, TF240s, and I've read about half a dozen just like that. With the 270s you are in a better position to achieve more horsepower. The cam and carb I think will be the key at this point, and I just don't know enough about cam specs to be confident in a prediction other than to say it "sounds" like you won't have a problem getting there.
               
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              • 440rb

                440rb Well-Known Member

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                !.6 rockers increase lift and duration to some degree, I'm no cam guru but I would think thats a mild ramp speed roller being hyd.?, instability comes from too weak a spring, pushrod flex, incorrect geometry, pre-loading these lifters can be another issue. The duration is a bit weak yes and with 505ci it becomes even weaker to some extent, the 1.6's helping. Its a well thought out combo from the looks of the intake/carb/spacer etc. The cam is listed as 3>6.5k but thats for a stock stroke 440 I believe as thats the same cam used in the 440/240 head combo 620hp@6200, a longer stroke will change the characteristics of where max hp will be of course, I think they had all that in mind. Our 589 made its best hp @5500 and was within 1hp@5900 with a 260/270@.050 s/roller cam.

                At first I thought 687 was a bit optimistic@10.15:1 but its possible as much as any dyno no. given is. As far as oil control@.600!....well I'm sure they didn't just bolt it all together and go. I would've thought they primed the motor to see if any oil was coming out of the lifter bosses@max lift at least before going ahead?. The best way to avoid those issues would be to either bush the bores, or use solid body lifters as we know. I couldn't find any on a quick search in hyd. apart from a howards street roller which was almost solid bodied, but almost doesn't quite cut it. A stock block isn't the best for lifter boss accuracy, some are better than others, it can be a lottery as to how good a block you got.
                 
                Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
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                • Dan64

                  Dan64 Well-Known Member

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                  I hope it gets me there, lol. Seeing how this is a stock block build that will see street duty i didn't want to go to crazy ,i'm just looking for 625 to maybe 650 hp with a nice torque curve .240's could have gotten me there but I knew that i was going to have a hood clearance problem and would probably have to go with a dual plane ( can't find a 337) so i was told maybe try 270's with a Indy dual plane and as much spacer as i can fit . I was thinking a 950 Brawler but have been told that due to air velocity issues i may be actually better off with a 850 or maybe have one built for the car. The hyd. roller spec'ed out by my builder is as large as he would go with a hyd. roller. Maybe i'm completely wrong about needing to see 6300-6400 maybe i'll be all done at 5800-6000? and be able to hit my numbers ,that may be a good thing. With a 29" tall tire ,410 rear ,if i can hit my numbers it should only trap about 6000 i think.
                   
                  Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
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                  • biomedtechguy

                    biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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                    The larger engine displacement will make the cam "seem smaller". The 270s vs 240s moves your torque peak UP the RPM range though. I just can't bring myself to run 240s on a 541 cu in motor, so that's why I moved up to the
                    270 :lowdown:MaxWedge:bananadance:sized ports...
                    :lowdown:MAX:bananadance::monkeyleft:WEDGE:drinks: :lol:
                    (and I get a kick, like a little kid, obviously, out of saying "Max Wedge")
                     
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                    • Dan64

                      Dan64 Well-Known Member

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                      For some reason i was thinking only about the increase in lift ,not duration ,thank you for pointing that out,makes perfect sense. Didn't realized that it would move that far down the rpm range with a stroker but that's a good thing also. Thanks for the explanation.
                       
                    • Budnicks

                      Budnicks You Can Just Thank Me Latter FBBO Gold Member

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                      I've had the Crane Retrofits Hyd. Roller lifters in 2 of my strokers
                      street/strip engines
                      I had 12,000 miles on the 1st one, when I sold the car
                      back in 2007
                      (it's been freshened up but still has the same Crane camshaft, rockers & lifters)
                      I have the same lifters & milder Crane Hyd. Roller in my current RR too
                      going on 12 years now...

                      I'm truly not even sure if they (Crane) make the same lifters or not
                      or if someone else bought out the tooling etc.
                      when Crane was bought by S&S (motorcycle related engines)

                      I've still never had any problems "yet" after 2 sets & 10's of thousands of miles
                      & many laps down a racetrack or beat runs driving in the mountains

                      I made sure the pushrods where the correct length
                      it's critical, so is the amount of adjuster sticking out of the rockers

                      I also use the Crane Super Gold 1.6 rockers, hardened shafts & lash-caps too
                      needed to order special length pushrods
                      the ones Crane said; 'were the proper ones' were too long,
                      (IIRC like 0.090 long)

                      (I have semi fully ported Eddy RPM closed chamber heads)

                      I have a small base circle Crane 'Retrofit Hydraulic Roller Cam' too
                      I've checked them a few times, so far so good on the 2nd build too
                      not sure how many miles on this combo, probably 5,000 (???)
                      still all good, no weird wear shown, no excessive noise or troubles either


                      IMO a solid roller & higher lift cams will eat valve-springs fast-er,
                      especially just cruising, putzing around
                      not really street friendly, although they tend to & will make more power
                      but not for a 'real long' period of time
                      they are made for higher RPM & regular servicing
                      if you don't mind pulling the VC's & checking valve lash regularly
                      you can keep on-top of it "hopefully"

                      the roller trunnions (shafts) on the lifters fail more often than anything
                      on a solid or Hyd. roller

                      I like the solid roller on the street too
                      just more upkeep & maintenance, regular valve adjustments
                      to keep "really" on-top of stuff, or you're asking for trouble
                      when something starts showing up as 'lose or too tight'
                      something is wrong, usually the springs go 1st
                      or the lifters fail (it's not just a Hyd. Roller lifter problem)
                      or the push rods tips or adjusters go bad
                      (lack of proper oiling or adjustments out too much)

                      many newer "performance cars'
                      have service life of 100,000 miles on hydraulic rollers

                      if you're going after every last hp, go with a solid lifter

                      some results will & some opinions will vary as much as them too
                      that's mine

                      take it or leave it
                       
                      Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
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                      • Dan64

                        Dan64 Well-Known Member

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                        My engine builder really liked the older Crane's but thought the tooling was sold off during a buy out. We were wondering if Gatorman was the company that got the tooling?. Both in Florida i believe.
                         
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                        • Budnicks

                          Budnicks You Can Just Thank Me Latter FBBO Gold Member

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                          I can't answer that question...
                          I don't know...

                          I'm not not sure if S&S bought all the tooling or not
                          when I bought my 2 sets,
                          but they were owned by S&S at that time, doing business as Crane
                          (a few of the same people I dealt had with at Crane originally, for years
                          they were a big sponsor of mine back in the day, I liked their stuff, they treated me well

                          before the buy out, some of the org. people still were doing engineering/design there,
                          I have no idea if they still are
                          )
                          but that was over 12 years ago now
                           
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                          • biomedtechguy

                            biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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                            Budnicks,
                            My goal is to not have to "do maintenance" or to keep it to a minimum.
                            Not knowing what cam specs are going to be recommended, I can only speak in general terms, but I don't think I will need a "lot of cam" to reach my power goals, being as I've gone up in cubic inches, to a 541 (4.25 crank/4.50 bore). The other side of that is the Max Wedge ports of the TF 270s can handle more cam, and the larger displacement will make the cam seem smaller. Pump gas 93 octane too.
                            So I'm sure a solid lifter flat tappet will get the job done, and one reason why I'm trying to stay away from hydraulic lifters is IQ52's warning against using them, and although I've had zero problems and great performance from both my CompCams hydraulic flat tappet lifters and the hydraulic roller cam and lifters in the Pontiac, I can't ignore Jim's concerns.
                            So I'll get power from displacement, I don't need to try to find "the most" power from my cam lifters. In that case, what do you say?
                             
                          • Budnicks

                            Budnicks You Can Just Thank Me Latter FBBO Gold Member

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                            Jim IQ52 knows his shit...

                            I just wanted to share, my personal experiences...

                            I don't use Comp Cams, I haven't for a long time
                            (I had a bunch of valve-train attrition or breakage back in the 90's
                            using their stuff on top-sportsman Big cid Chevy's, Blown Max Wedge & Milodon Hemi's
                            )
                            can't speak to their use or quality, anymore
                            hyd. roller or solid roller, for that matter
                             
                            Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
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