HYD. Roller lifters , which one?

[Budnicks]

edited; to Biomed's questions & response

if you're going with a 0.600" gross valve lift roller, of any kind
or a flat tappet camshaft, for that matter
you will have a higher maintenance & probably a higher parts attrition too

the nature of the beast, it's just physics
these kind of builds are unpredictable at times

the only way, is to check it regularly, you may save it
so you don't kill the whole engine', all at the same time
better to be safe than sorry, especially when you spend $20k
(far more than $10,000, like it sounds like you are going to) on parts,
expensive aftermarket heads, a expensive aftermarket block,
crank, rods, pistons etc. &all that billit roller valve-train, ain't cheap either

there is no way around that, if you don't want a catastrophic failure
especially in the valve train dept., which is the culprit 'a lot'
& usually from not checking it often, to see a problem before it's catastrophic

bigger cid doesn't matter on that side of it either
& yes it'll make more torque & probably more hp at a lower RPM too
because of the 100+ more cid's, it'll probably eat more parts too
& I know it'll eat far more fuel , that's the nature of the beast
(yes it will want more camshaft to take advantage of the heads & added cid's)

 

[Dan64]

if you're going with a 0.600" gross valve lift roller, of any kind
or a flat tappet camshaft, for that matter
you will have a higher maintenance & probably a higher parts attrition

the nature of the beast, it's just physics

the only way, is to check it regularly
so you don't kill the whole engine'
better to be safe than sorry, especially when you spend $20k
(more than $10,000) on parts, aftermarket heads, block, crank, rods, pistons
& roller valve-train

there is no way around that, if you don't want a catastrophic failure
especially in the valve train dept., which is the culprit 'a lot'
& usually from not checking it often, to see a problem before it's catastrophic

bigger cid doesn't matter on that side of it either
& yes it'll make more torque & probably more hp at a lower RPM too
because of the 100+ more cid's, it'll probably eat more parts too
& I know it'll eat far more fuel , that's the nature of the beast
(yes it will want more camshaft to take advantage of the heads & added cid's)

Your 100 percent correct. No way to get around maintenance.

 

[Budnicks]

Your 100 percent correct. No way to get around maintenance.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Jim IQ52 knows his ****...

So that and the fact that I don't put a lot of miles on it, Cruisin the Coast maybe 600 miles? 12 Local (45 minutes to 1 hour away or less) cruise in shows/year, and then how ever many times I go to the track, which I figure may wind up being once a month, or 15 times a year would be a HUGE increase in track trips, but I figure I'll want to go more.
Seems like solid flat tappet or solid roller cam, because although I'm having great luck w/345 pound springs, .510 lift roller in the Pontiac 421 with CompCams hydraulic roller lifters, and GREAT performance from the CompCams hydraulic flat tappet lifters and springs in my 440 up to 6,200 rev limited, God help me if I put hydraulic lifters (FT or Roller) in the stroker and they fail....I would be embarrassed to post about it after having been warned by IQ52!
So solid FT seem to have lighter springs and there's nothing to "rebuild" and the larger diameter of the Mopar lifter allows for a "roller-like" cam profile. OTOH solid roller lifters are guaranteed to have to be rebuilt, and that worries me...

 

[Dan64]

Just to keep the thread on track if anyone else has a company and series of hyd. roller lifter that they a positive experience or a really bad experience which a certain brand i would love to learn what's available.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Just to keep the thread on track if anyone else has a company and series of hyd. roller lifter that they a positive experience or a really bad experience which a certain brand i would love to learn what's available.

Sorry...
I get wrapped up in the posts and in my mind I jumped back to the long thread about the lifters I started not long ago.

 

[440rb]

I hope it gets me there, lol. Seeing how this is a stock block build that will see street duty i didn't want to go to crazy ,i'm just looking for 625 to maybe 650 hp with a nice torque curve .240's could have gotten me there but I knew that i was going to have a hood clearance problem and would probably have to go with a dual plane ( can't find a 337) so i was told maybe try 270's with a Indy dual plane and as much spacer as i can fit . I was thinking a 950 Brawler but have been told that due to air velocity issues i may be actually better off with a 850 or maybe have one built for the car. The hyd. roller spec'ed out by my builder is as large as he would go with a hyd. roller. Maybe i'm completely wrong about needing to see 6300-6400 maybe i'll be all done at 5800-6000? and be able to hit my numbers ,that may be a good thing. With a 29" tall tire ,410 rear ,if i can hit my numbers it should only trap about 6000 i think.

I doubt if you'll have too much issue with velocity as we did as we have a small cam and big 365cnc -13's which do not have good low lift no's. Our motor actually made slightly more hp with an 850DP than it did with the 950DP, but that could be the small venturi 1.37 version, I haven't checked it out. It also made 3hp less with a 1050 Dominator!!, took a while to get my head around that. I don't know the weight of your car but can work out fairly accurately what it should run/rpm at if I know the weight@the line, a given hp of say 600 but can change that and with your 4.10/29" which is what we are running as well.

 

[Dan64]

I doubt if you'll have too much issue with velocity as we did as we have a small cam and big 365cnc -13's which do not have good low lift no's. Our motor actually made slightly more hp with an 850DP than it did with the 950DP, but that could be the small venturi 1.37 version, I haven't checked it out. It also made 3hp less with a 1050 Dominator!!, took a while to get my head around that. I don't know the weight of your car but can work out fairly accurately what it should run/rpm at if I know the weight@the line, a given hp of say 600 but can change that and with your 4.10/29" which is what we are running as well.

It's a 64 Polara ,i've never had it fully together as of yet to weight it but i'm guessing 3450 lbs + me = 3700 ish sitting on the track. I can't say i fully understand why a 850 may be better on my motor than a 950 but that's just what my builder is thinking. We will probably dyno it with both ( he has a 950 ) Thanks for your help.

 

[440rb]

3700lbs, actual track 600fwhp with ancillaries, 4.10/29 tyre=
60 Foot E.T. : 1.48
1/8 Mile E.T. : 6.74
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 100.85
1/4 Mile E.T. : 10.68
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 125
1/4 Mile Trap RPM : 5,964+slip
@sea level.

 

[Dan64]

3700lbs, actual track 600fwhp with ancillaries, 4.10/29 tyre=
60 Foot E.T. : 1.48
1/8 Mile E.T. : 6.74
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 100.85
1/4 Mile E.T. : 10.68
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 125
1/4 Mile Trap RPM : 5,964+slip
@sea level.

If i'm a 10 anything i'm happy. This project has a pretty straight forward goal of 10 second ( any 10 second will do) 1/4 mile slip in a build style of pre pro-street car,think late 70's ,early eighty .

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

So that and the fact that I don't put a lot of miles on it, Cruisin the Coast maybe 600 miles? 12 Local (45 minutes to 1 hour away or less) cruise in shows/year, and then how ever many times I go to the track, which I figure may wind up being once a month, or 15 times a year would be a HUGE increase in track trips, but I figure I'll want to go more.
Seems like solid flat tappet or solid roller cam, because although I'm having great luck w/345 pound springs, .510 lift roller in the Pontiac 421 with CompCams hydraulic roller lifters, and GREAT performance from the CompCams hydraulic flat tappet lifters and springs in my 440 up to 6,200 rev limited, God help me if I put hydraulic lifters (FT or Roller) in the stroker and they fail....I would be embarrassed to post about it after having been warned by IQ52!
So solid FT seem to have lighter springs and there's nothing to "rebuild" and the larger diameter of the Mopar lifter allows for a "roller-like" cam profile. OTOH solid roller lifters are guaranteed to have to be rebuilt, and that worries me...

don’t let the lifter maint on a solid roller bother you. Pretty easy on a wedge if you do a valley tray with removable cover. Intake comes off the easiest of about any engine.

ive been in the 10’s at 4000# 10.5:1 511 with a solid FT and six pack with a very unprep’d car. What your building should have no problem out running it providing your on the stick. Those make a break ET depending on who’s behind the wheel.

 

[biomedtechguy]

been in the 10’s at 4000# 10.5:1 511 with a solid FT and six pack with a very unprep’d car.

six pack induction

 

[BSB67]

if you're going with a 0.600" gross valve lift roller, of any kind
or a flat tappet camshaft, for that matter
you will have a higher maintenance & probably a higher parts attrition too

the nature of the beast, it's just physics
these kind of builds are unpredictable at times

This

 

[440rb]

if you're going with a 0.600" gross valve lift roller, of any kind
or a flat tappet camshaft, for that matter
you will have a higher maintenance & probably a higher parts attrition too

the nature of the beast, it's just physics
these kind of builds are unpredictable at times

Well yes but not necessarily.......1989 my 440 '69 Cuda, started running it with the old McAndless .650"/[email protected] sft cam, iron adjustable rockers, moved on to better 906 heads with HS roller rckrs, no problems at all at any time through to 1991 when I stopped, was a race car only, ticked over@900rpm, (nice street cam)lash never changed and I wasn't using anything special for pushrods, springs used were for a roller cam (triple) and I removed the small spring and shimmed it up to spec, valve train stability is the key and good oiling (single external in my case).

 

[biomedtechguy]

Since the OP is asking about which hydraulic roller lifters, my experience so far with the CompCams hydraulic roller lifters in the Pontiac 421 is quiet operation and zero maintenance. Spring pressure is 345# open and lift is only .510"
@Dan64 I'm trying to push the posts back to your original question.

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

I looked for my crane Hr lifters last night but didn’t find them. I’m still a bit disorganized from the move. I’ll look again today

 

[BSB67]

Well yes but not necessarily.......1989 my 440 '69 Cuda, started running it with the old McAndless .650"/[email protected] sft cam, iron adjustable rockers, moved on to better 906 heads with HS roller rckrs, no problems at all at any time through to 1991 when I stopped, was a race car only, ticked over@900rpm, (nice street cam)lash never changed and I wasn't using anything special for pushrods, springs used were for a roller cam (triple) and I removed the small spring and shimmed it up to spec, valve train stability is the key and good oiling (single external in my case).

I believe we're talking street duty in this thread, not what lived at the track for a couple of seasons. I might be mistaken.

 

[Dan64]

I believe we're talking street duty in this thread, not what lived at the track for a couple of seasons. I might be mistaken.

Yes,it's really a street car but will see the track maybe 5-6 times a year.

 

[440rb]

I believe we're talking street duty in this thread, not what lived at the track for a couple of seasons. I might be mistaken.

We are talking street/strip, would you expect "higher maintenance & probably a higher parts attrition too" on the street or@the track with .600"+ lift and 6500>7300rpm runs?, albeit for 9>10secs@a time but probably 50 times or more in 2yrs, if it lives @the strip with no parts attrition its gonna live on the street or am I missing something, engines don't blow up on the street but on the track. I ran my other 340 car on the street with a .590" sft cam as well with a 4200stall and 4.30's with no issues and 4000rpm@55mph for miles. If we talking continued street use with solid roller stuff that may be a bit different story.

 

[biomedtechguy]

That's my BIG question, and I have a VESTED INTEREST in the replies @Dan64 gets here.
My local engine builder who built our Pontiac 421 Tripower suggested the CompCams hydraulic roller cam and lifters. I haven't been given ANY warning nor instructions on doing maintenance
or inspections on them. They are quiet in operation, and have worked flawlessly. Rare quarter mile track use (so far, but once the carbs are rebuilt to high performance specs, that could increase to twice a month) a full week of Cruisin the Coast every year, and that includes lots of stop and go traffic and idling. I can't compare that to the 541 stroker Mopar I plan on building, because the Pontiac has a .510" lift and only 345# spring pressure.
I am sure that the lift on my 541 will be higher, and higher spring pressure. Same for the OP, but from all of the information I've been reading in AndyF's book, the OP IS a good candidate for hydraulic roller cam and lifters, because of CAM lift at .600 or less in his case, as long as spring pressure doesn't disqualify their use.
My only 2 concerns for the OP using hydraulic roller lifters is the RPM range with the Max Wedge ports and depending on the cam, how high that combination may PUSH the RPM range UP. It is clear to me that AndyF is ok with hydraulic lifters to 6k RPM and 6,500 to 7k RPM max.
The 2nd "problem" for me is more individual choice. As much as I would LOVE the seemingly maintenance free? operation of hydraulic roller lifters, I feel compelled to abide by my friend and one of my mentors Jim Laroy's firm decision NOT TO USE ANY HYDRAULIC LIFTERS, even though the hydraulic flat tappet CompCams lifters in my 440 292°/.509 cam w/911-16 CompCams springs at 373 pounds of pressure performs FLAWLESSLY on a regular basis to 6,200 RPMs!