Lithium Ion Size 24 underhood battery - XS Power (7lbs!!)

[68 Sport Satellite]

I came across a tech article in the recent issue of Mopar Action by master mechanic Rick E (love ya Rick! - thanks for all of the tech) about installing a group 24 size Lithium Ion battery underhood in a classic mopar. It's one of the first offered in this size that is Li-ion. It was an XS Power brand with 1000 cranking amps. What really got my interest is the weight - 7-lbs. Wow. I'm currently running a group 27 hemi size AGM battery in my 68 Satellite to overcome starter heat soak starting issues. It works great, but I can really feel the extra weight out front compared to my old size 24 lead acid battery. I'd love to lighten things up front with this 7-lb battery.

One thing not mentioned in the article are any safety concern issues. We've all read about Li-Ion batteries igniting and not easy to put out the fire. The battery I'm looking to install says max temperature to expose it to is 140F. I've yet to measure underhood temps at idle at the battery tray location, but should I be worried? Has anyone on here installed one of these and can you speak to my safety concerns? Thanks in advance.

 

[madjack]

The "Battle Born" 100ah 12v li battery is very popular with the RV crowd...it is made with a "safer" chemistry supposed to be fire/explosion safe and a direct plug and play set up which is not only considerably lighter but has a smaller footprint as well

I have no personal experience with this battery so do your due diligence since your mileage may vary

 

[Darter6]

Battle Born is a Nevada based company and has a good reputation.
I haven't looked any up but understand their batteries are almost $1000.
And you re right.RVer's love 'um.

 

[Sixpactogo]

I too read that article with great interest. Not worried about heat since mine is trunk mounted. I thought I would wait to see what the real world has to say about it over time. Maybe the cost will come down some too. If my 4 year old group 27 takes a dump, I may take a chance with one but never really liked being the first guinea pig.

 

[Kern Dog]

I like the idea of these BUT after seeing in person just three feet away what these batteries can do when punctured, I’ll pass.
I had one burst into blue and red flames when a nail gun was bumped and shot a nail into the side of the battery in a cordless circular saw.
I am not a worry wart that abides by every safety warning but I am cautious toward fires!

 

[DodgeBoy5150]

I came across a tech article in the recent issue of Mopar Action by master mechanic Rick E (love ya Rick! - thanks for all of the tech) about installing a group 24 size Lithium Ion battery underhood in a classic mopar. It's one of the first offered in this size that is Li-ion. It was an XS Power brand with 1000 cranking amps. What really got my interest is the weight - 7-lbs. Wow. I'm currently running a group 27 hemi size AGM battery in my 68 Satellite to overcome starter heat soak starting issues. It works great, but I can really feel the extra weight out front compared to my old size 24 lead acid battery. I'd love to lighten things up front with this 7-lb battery.

One thing not mentioned in the article are any safety concern issues. We've all read about Li-Ion batteries igniting and not easy to put out the fire. The battery I'm looking to install says max temperature to expose it to is 140F. I've yet to measure underhood temps at idle at the battery tray location, but should I be worried? Has anyone on here installed one of these and can you speak to my safety concerns? Thanks in advance.

I have been wanting to try this out also (thanks MA and RE)--anything to lighten up my 'Doba!
Originally my plan was to relocate my battery to the trunk--exactly what I have done before--after finding out that these LIB are reality now it might be a game changer.
Parts pricing for a new Optima redtop + cable and all the parts to relocate the battery are right in the ballpark price of the XS group24 LIB -- and it saves all the work of relocating the battery.
There are pros and cons for sure--in the end safety is my ultimate concern--if I decide to give the XS a try I will post the results here

 

[snakeoil24]

I think id rather improve the problems with heat soak before moving on.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

I like the idea of these BUT after seeing in person just three feet away what these batteries can do when punctured, I’ll pass.
I had one burst into blue and red flames when a nail gun was bumped and shot a nail into the side of the battery in a cordless circular saw.
I am not a worry wart that abides by every safety warning but I am cautious toward fires!

Hi Greg, can you expand on what you saw? This was a battery in the bottom of a circular saw? I'm trying to imagine how a battery case puncture would happen underhood with the hood closed while driving - rogue rock through grill?

 

[Kern Dog]

I was in a scissor lift at work. It has a sliding work platform. I moved the deck, the nail gun pressed the battery and a nail shot into the battery. Flames started flowing out of this fist sized battery like a firework on July 4th. Imagine an electric car in a collision with over 1000 lbs of these under your seats.
My thought is a collision Or a fan blade coming off, maybe a hold down bracket wearing through, who knows. Maybe I am worrying for nothing but I’ve never seen a traditional lead acid battery do that.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

I was in a scissor lift at work. It has a sliding work platform. I moved the deck, the nail gun pressed the battery and a nail shot into the battery. Flames started flowing out of this fist sized battery like a firework on July 4th. Imagine an electric car in a collision with over 1000 lbs of these under your seats.
My thought is a collision Or a fan blade coming off, maybe a hold down bracket wearing through, who knows. Maybe I am worrying for nothing but I’ve never seen a traditional lead acid battery do that.

yeah, I'm not a fan or the massive amounts if these batteries in the electric cars. I was hoping I could get confirmation that this new group 24 cased battery is rugged enough to prevent that. I'm more concerned about the heat exposure and want to use my IR gun to do some measurements.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

here's a good writeup on different Li-ion battery types. I believe the XV2400 is prismatic type (need to confirm, but found another group 24 that claims prismatic). This would make it the most rugged of the 3 types. Teslas employ cylindrical type.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...ium-ion-batteries-evs-fire-hazard-2021-08-23/

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

One more piece of info I didn't know -
there are several different cathode types used in Li-ion batteries depending on application. Lithium Iron Phosphate appears to be the group 24 battery of choice for RV's.
https://camperreport.com/rv-lithium-batteries/

"There are many different types of lithium-based batteries used for different applications. The type you are most likely to find used in RV lithium batteries is Lithium Iron Phosphate which is written as LiFePO4."
Another factor to consider when thinking about the safety of lithium batteries is their makeup. There is a reason that most RV lithium batteries are of the LiFePO4 type. According to RELiON’s FAQ page,

“Phosphate-based batteries offer superior chemical and mechanical structure that does not overheat to unsafe levels. Thus, providing an increase in safety over lithium-ion batteries made with other cathode materials…Lithium phosphate cells are incombustible, which is an important feature in the event of mishandling during charging or discharging. They can also withstand harsh conditions, be it freezing cold, scorching heat, or rough terrain.

When subjected to hazardous events, such as collision or short-circuiting, they won’t explode or catch fire, significantly reducing any chance of harm. If you’re selecting a lithium battery and anticipate use in hazardous or unstable environments, LiFePO4 is likely your best choice."

I'll be calling XS Power next week to confirm cell type and if it's Phosphate based. If so, I'm inclined to give it a try.

 

[Kern Dog]

When subjected to hazardous events, such as collision or short-circuiting, they won’t explode or catch fire, significantly reducing any chance of harm.

Uhhh...

 

[DeltaV]

Any changes/mods required for the charging system when you convert over to that group 24 lithium ion battery?

 

[DodgeBoy5150]

Any changes/mods required for the charging system when you convert over to that group 24 lithium ion battery?

No changes are required that I know of--according to the MA article it was a drop in replacement. I'm sure if anyone were to email Rick he would follow up with his latest knowledge of the swap.
I feel very confident--at least with a properly operating and maintained--stock MoPar charging system with the solid state regulator it should be fine.

How about this--I will use my Cordoba as a test mule for the XS LION battery swap if everyone here interested in the results will send me donations to purchase the battery

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

Uhhh...


View attachment 1243411

The point of that other article is there are several different types of Li-ion cathodes used. The Li-Fe-Phosphate are claimed to be the safest. That's not what Tesla uses. I don't know why.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

No changes are required that I know of--according to the MA article it was a drop in replacement. I'm sure if anyone were to email Rick he would follow up with his latest knowledge of the swap.
I feel very confident--at least with a properly operating and maintained--stock MoPar charging system with the solid state regulator it should be fine.

How about this--I will use my Cordoba as a test mule for the XS LION battery swap if everyone here interested in the results will send me donations to purchase the battery

I emailed Rick 1 week ago about any safety concerns of this battery and he hasn't responded yet. Maybe a few others could email him as well? At first I was thinking he may not answer due to liability concerns, but he's pretty up front about safety stuff, so I hope he'll still respond.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

I called XS Power direct today to ask about their XV2400 battery that was in the MA article.

I asked which type of cells they use - pouch, cylindrical, or prismatic. They said none of the above - it's their own design they call flat cell. They said they looked into pouch and decided against it and that it's not cylindrical. They didn't expand on prismatic and kept saying it's a flat cell design.

I also asked about cathode type and if it was Li-Fe-phosphate. They said no, it's Lithium Titanate. They wouldn't go into more detail. Now I'm confused. Need more research.

I also asked about underhood heat and he said it will work, but that if I was concerned, they also sell heat deflection wrap P/N 500.

If anyone else uncovers more info I'm all ears. (disclaimer - I impulse bought this battery the day I read the article. It arrived last week and is sitting in my garage on the shelf. If I do use it, I'll measure underhood temps first and charge it before install with a Li-ion charger.)

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

I did some reading on Lithium Titanate (LTO). It's better for an automotive application and doesn't suffer from not working well in cold environments like LFP (lithium iron phosphate). It also fares well in puncture and ignition. After watching the safety comparison video for LTO below, I'm sold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-titanate_battery

 

[GTXDAN]

If you remember when the Boeing 787 came out it had LI batteries in place of the APU. Then shortly after it went into service they had issues with the batteries overheating and even had some fires from them. Boeing had to redesign the battery compartment to provide more cooling and to contain the battery failure if it happened. I believe UPS lost a 747 from a fire in the cargo compartment while inflight carrying LI batteries. They couldn't make it back to the airport to land before crashing. That's why the FAA won't allow you to check luggage with LI batteries in it, and all commercial planes in the US carry fire bags in the passenger compartments now in case a cell phone goes up in flames. IMO LI batteries are great for small electronics like flashlights, phones , power tools, but there are still some major issues that need to be ironed out when using them in cars and such. Ask your local fire department about trying to put out a car fire on an EV when the battery goes up.