Mopar better than Chevy

[Runcharger]

The deal is other than the Hemi and the Crossrammers Chrysler built street engines. In that application the Chrysler engines were superior no question about it. Dry intakes, external oil pumps, no rocker studs to pull out, better geometry.
They weren't building race engines, when they did they dominated that too. Chevrolet had to get in bed with the sanctioning bodies to compete, because they couldn't do it straight up. Then because of the sheer numbers of their thinwall junk the aftermarket came to the party and that put Chrysler on the trailer. The truth hurts but that's what it is.

 

[RemCharger]

The 2 fastest N/A regular bracket cars at our track are chrysler powered. No hurting truths over here . Just smiles. YMMV

 

[DanielSlocum]

People seem to forget that big huge intake ports dont work so good with the medium street friendly rear gears which most muscle cars came with back in the days of no overdrive transmissions. The ports on the B/RB engines [especially the 440] were in fact excellent for creating long fat torque curves which would usually win the day vs big ports unless the big port engines had 4.10 or higher gears. Most other big block engines of the period also had similar port sizes and most did not flow qhite as well as the lowly 906. Big Chevys,phord 429&460,351 Cleveland,and Chryslers own 426 Hemi were all that had larger ports i do believe.

 

[Fran Blacker]

The heads were a weakness but the 2 bolt mains is another MO. You have to put a girdle in.

 

[DanielSlocum]

They were a weakness on the dragstrip;but they worked very well on the streets. The Hemi solved the drag strip problem.
The 2-bolt mains are good for 550-600 HP with studs. Perfectly adequate for probably 95% of builds. After that,a very good block and probably a girdle becomes a very good idea.

 

[Budnicks]

I was asked why are most N/A Pro-stock cars now GM powered
'they want to win'

I will apologized if you're offended by facts

No offence intended
My experience

Most all the no-prep or Pro-radial 275 stuff is aftermarket Hemis, NOW
in Mudstains or Camaros (still a few BBC, but not like years ago was)
the rare MoPar body style
Engines like Alum. KB or Pro-line 485x Hemi's or some aftermarket derivative,
w/Centrifugal Pro-Charger SC
The big Screw Blowers are making a comeback, in Pro-mod too
usually on an aftermarket Hemi also

Not Many Fords (engines anyways)
a bunch of Mudstains with GMs SBC or BBC or Hemi's

It's been said that a BBM, B/RB wedges
is a bigger bore block 'with heads better fitted for a small block on it'
I hear/heard that a lot, for eons...
By professional engine builders...

But;
that bigger bore 4.25"+ 383/426 wedge
(210cc aftermarket, is a performance SBC size,
240 is barely bigger then the better aftermarket SBC heads have)
or 413 MW a tad smaller bore, 426 MW or 426 Hemi 4.25"
4.32" in the 440, aides the small longish intake ports in flowing
better 'than they really should', bigger bore make the intake ports even more effective
no obstructions like cylinder walls in the way, shrouding the intake valves, flow
but stock (with like a 906) they give up at about 5,800 RPM in reality,
& they don't have much camshaft stock either .468"/268* RR engine or 6bbl
unless a big valvetrain change, springs, rockers etc. & cam change
unless you have Max Wedge Heads, it will rev a bit higher
but the bottom end 2 bolt mains, is still weak-ish, all stuff that can be somewhat overcome
with aftermarket fixes

B/RB wedge head in stock form, it's literally
like a performance version of 'a good SBC head, used on 400cid & less'
with a much smaller bore on the SBC 4"- 4.125"

the MW heads had great torque, they should've used them on everything
flow never hurts, maybe a truck motor it would be a lil' detrimental

(Org.s Iron MW heads, 250-270cc after fully professionally ported, 300-330cfm
like 230cc-ish in stock form prior)
(BBC Iron Rectangle Port Heads, 330-350cc & near 350+ to 400+cfm after ported, easily,
320+cfm stock, more cfm/CCs with the right porter, doing them)

The "Hemi's" were ideal for hi-RPM, like super speedways or T/F cars
really short runners, not great down low for torque
why the 440-6bbl was superior on the street
Hemi's great for Blown applications,
all out racing, where they are at 6,500+ WOT all the time
that's where the Hemi lives & runs the best, makes it power
(if it lives long enough, expensive & heavy parts to make it live a long time, at hi-RPMs)
440-4bbl 440-6 (again heavy rods) or 426mw 413 MW prior
made their power down lower, move the car out quickly,
especially with a 4.10:1 Dana 60 performance package gearing
smaller intake ports kept the 'velocity/air speed" up better in the thin smaller runners
(than the GM Rect. Port would), at lower RPMs
Wedge heads not huge power 'up top', they did well down low
they'd not stay together, & they were prone to rod bearing failures/spun,
when running over that for prolonged times, nothing aftermarket parts didn't cure

(Gearing much like the V or M codes or Hemi cars, Dana 60 had 4.10:1 gears)

Donovan 417 Aluminum was a great aftermarket Hemi, Gen 1 hemi style,
(based on a 392) most FE T/F dragsters & F/AA used them, in the hayday

I had a great Milodon Mastodon 572 Hemi,
I de-stroked to run 526cid-531cids max (max cid rules req. in T/S 'of the day')
made near 1400hp N/A, to about 7,500-7,800 rpm shifts & 8,000+ at the stripe at 188

Mopar Hemis, even org. 354 or 392 'Chrysler Iron' dominated T/F
before & after the Ford SOHC 427,
were fazed out, to difficult & too expensive to produce & hard to work on
when the 426 RB Hemi was coming into it's own
all the T/F & F/C engines in pro-classes (fuel/nitro) are based on that design
most aren't Chrysler anything just the design, all aftermarket parts

there were quite a few BBC in Fuel/or Top-Gas stuff too,
even SBCs had some duals

The Shotgun Fords 429 Boss Hemis, were really temperamental
& had no head gaskets, they had precise milled surfaces
& O-rings around the oil & water passages
didn't do well under extreme conditions, when hot, but notable street motors,
torquey single 4bbl Holley's too

Canted valve heads flow better, then a wedge, much like a Hemi does

Ball Hemi was a Canted Valve design too, Chrysler bailed on it

454s have/had a 4" stroke, it is a torque monster, freeway gears or not
vs the 426/440/413 a 3.75" stroke, great efficiency in the torque curve small ports,
smaller ports keep the velocity up, low RPM (still way to small for a 440)
same stroke as the 427 BBC MkIV 435hp L79, 3x2bbls Rectangle Port
or the L88 (or ZL1) single 4bbl arguably 600hp tuned correctly, with headers added
or 396 425hp 1965 L89, both/all 3 single 4bbl Holley's
& there were never any dual 4bbl carb ,other than the 409/425hp on BBCs
with crappy flat combustion chambers 348 W heads/w bigger valves
w/no combustion chamber, strange it made the power it actually did

There were 2x4bbl SBCs Power Packs
Much like the Golden Lions 2x4bbl on the early BB wedges

the LS6 454 in road cars, Like Vetts & Chevelles 450hp
Aftermarket - LS7 GM Performance Crate 454 Mark IV
w/Rectangle port canted big valve high flow heads
flowed easily 330cfm from the factory, before porting, w/a multi angle valve job
they had 0.500+ to almost 0.600" gross valve lift with 1.7:1 rockers,
with stock as delivered camshafts too, no others came with that much lift
&
GM used 3.42:1 or 3.73:1 gears were very common place in GM performance cars,
later z28s/Camaros & Chevelles or Vetts
the GM Muscle cars got 4.11:1 in a 12 bolt, hell most Chevelles had 3.08:1 or 3.42:1
unless you ordered the optional 4.11:1 or 3.73:1 in the later 1965's to like 1971's

Naturally aspirated GM Performance engines/'crate engine'
spec part by part would be called today, if they still made them
like the DREC (it's DRCE edit) 4.7" bore x 3.60" stroke (to begin with)
Pontiac Big Chief/Oldsmobile GM Corp. 'Pro-stock', 1400 hp/800 ftlbs Tq
dominated the class
had much different/wider (5") bore spread/spacing apart Blocks
& way better/different style 'spread port heads' too
huge camshaft bearings & huge diameter camshafts, long before any others did it

The GM based 'Arias Hemi' rotating assembly based on GM MkIV parts,
for GM Perf. did do well for a time
just expensive, Hemi heads & special blocks, specila complicated valvetrain/rockers etc.
not produced in huge #s,
like the Chrysler Aftermarket Hemis
Arias Parts were extremely hard to get & pricey too
(mostly used in dual engine off-shore boats)

I like both pro-GM BBCs & pro-BBMs,
Even a few select Fords
I don't limit myself to 1 brand, I don't wear blinders
there's plenty of power to be had with both/all 3
I know I could build a 1400hp N/A BBC easily, off the shelf parts
it'd take a lil' more trying/more $$$ & more time & even more CIDs
to the do that with a BBM especially a wedge (not degrading them at all, just facts of life)

albeit most my street/cars have all mostly been MoPars 68-70 BBMs
majority of 13 RRs & 12 Chargers, I have a sweet spot for the 68's especially

Had a bunch of Pontiacs, GTOs, 65 & 70
Firebirds 67-68, Formulas 70-71 or Firehawk or Trans Ams too, Gen 2, 3, 4 1971-2002
both racecars & street/strip cars
Had my share of Olds 442s a 1964 & 65, Buick GSs a 1970 & 71
& Gen 1, 2 & 3 Camaros/z28s too 1967-89


Equal opportunity gearhead
my $1.25

 

[Russ Hood]

Something has been bugging me, so I'm going to put it out there.

When I look at 440 RB, at least from 66-71, I see it as superior to the chevy BB - like a 454 - from the same timeframe. Ok, granted the stock Mopar heads, compared to a 454 Chevy BB, were slightly smaller (less flow), but a lot of everything else can be argued as better. Many of the stock 440 features are now desired aftermarket Chevy BB upgrades... such as large bore lifters and shaft rockers. Also, Chevy BB valve train geometry leaves a bit to be desired and to stabilize it you have to put in oversized rocker studs and a girdle, or - ironically - shaft rockers. The structure of the 440 intake manifold is better... such as no water and you don't have to remove the distributor to pull it. The distributor location and the use of the halfshaft in the 440 is just smarter. The 440's external oil pump, which can be adjusted, is smart. Granted, 454 does not have exhaust neighboring ports, which is helpful.

The aftermarket has really focused on chevy for obvious reasons, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a better block.

Anyway, let the knives fly.

I wouldnt own a chebbie!

 

[Russ Hood]

I was asked why are most N/A Pro-stock cars now GM
'they want to win'

Most all the no-prep or Pro-radial 275 stuff is aftermarket Hemis,
in Mudstains or Camaros (still a few BBC, but not like years ago)
the rare MoPar body style
Engines like KB or Pro-line 485x Hemi's or some derivative,
w/Centrifugal ProCharger SC
The big Screw Blowers are making a comeback, in Pro-mod too
usually on an aftermarket Hemi also

Not Many Fords (engines anyways) a bunch of Mudstains with GMs or Hemi's

It's been said that a BBM,
is a bigger bore block with small block heads on it
I hear/heard that a lot, for eons

But;
that bigger bore 4.25"+ 383/426 wedge
or 413 a tad smaller bore/4.25" 426 MW or 426 Hemi
4.32" in the 440, aides the small longish intake ports in flowing
better 'than they really should', bigger bore make the ports even more effective
but stock they give up at about 5,800 RPM in reality,
& they don't have much camshaft stock either
unless a big valvetrain & cam change

B/RB wedge head in stock form, it's literally
like a performance version of 'a good SBC head, used on 400cid & less'
with a much smaller bore on the SBC 4"- 4.125"

the MW heads had great torque, they should've used them on everything
flow never hurts, maybe a truck motor it would be a lil' detrimental

(org.s at 250-270cc after fully professionally ported, like 230cc-ish stock form prior)
(BBC Rectangle Port Heads 350cc 400cfm after ported, easily, more with the right porter)

&
The "Hemi's" were ideal for hi-RPM, like super speedways or T/F cars
really short runners, not great down low for torque
why the 440-6bbl was superior on the street
Hemi's great for Blown applications,
all out racing, where they are at 6,500+ WOT all the time
that's where the Hemi lives & runs the best, makes it power
(if it lives long enough, expensive & heavy parts to make it live a long time, at hi-RPMs)
440-4bbl 440-6 (again heavy rods) or 426mw 413 MW prior
made their power down lower, move the car out quickly,
especially with a 4.10:1 Dana 60 performance package gearing
smaller intake ports kept the 'velocity/air speed" up better in the thin smaller runners
(than the GM Rect. Port would), at lower RPMs
Wedge heads not huge power 'up top', they did well down low
they'd not stay together, & they were prone to rod bearing failures/spun,
when running over that for prolonged times, nothing aftermarket parts didn't cure

(Gearing much like the V or M codes or Hemi cars, Dana 60 had 4.10:1 gears)

Donovan 417 Aluminum was a great aftermarket Hemi, Gen 1 hemi style,
(based on a 392) most FE T/F dragsters & F/AA used them, in the hayday

I had a great Milodon Mastodon 572 Hemi,
I de-stroked to run 526cid-531cids max (max cid rules req. in T/S 'of the day')
made near 1400hp N/A, to about 7,500-7,800 rpm shifts & 8,000+ at the stripe at 188

Mopar Hemis, even org. 354 or 392 'Chrysler Iron' dominated T/F
before & after the Ford SOHC 427,
were fazed out, to difficult & too expensive to produce & hard to work on
when the 426 RB Hemi was coming into it's own
all the T/F & F/C engines in pro-classes (fuel/nitro) are based on that design
most aren't Chrysler anything just the design, all aftermarket parts

there were quite a few BBC in Fuel/or Top-Gas stuff too,
even SBCs had some duals

The Shotgun Fords 429 Boss Hemis, were really temperamental
& had no head gaskets, they had precise milled surfaces
& O-rings around the oil & water passages
didn't do well under extreme conditions, when hot, but notable street motors,
torquey single 4bbl Holley's too

Canted valve heads flow better, then a wedge, much like a Hemi does

Ball Hemi was a Canted Valve design too, Chrysler bailed on it

454s have/had a 4" stroke, it is a torque monster, freeway gears or not
vs the 426/440/413 a 3.75" stroke, great efficiency in the torque curve small ports,
smaller ports keep the velocity up, low RPM (still way to small for a 440)
same stroke as the 427 BBC MkIV 435hp L79, 3x2bbls Rectangle Port
or the L88 (or ZL1) single 4bbl arguably 600hp tuned correctly, with headers added
or 396 425hp 1965 L89, both/all 3 single 4bbl Holley's
& there were never any dual 4bbl carb ,other than the 409/425hp on BBCs
with crappy flat combustion chambers 348 W heads/w bigger valves
w/no combustion chamber, strange it made the power it actually did

There were 2x4bbl SBCs Power Packs
Much like the Golden Lions 2x4bbl on the early BB wedges

the LS6 454 in road cars, Like Vetts & Chevelles 450hp
Aftermarket - LS7 GM Performance Crate 454 Mark IV
w/Rectangle port canted big valve high flow heads
flowed easily 330cfm from the factory, before porting, w/a multi angle valve job
they had 0.500+ to almost 0.600" gross valve lift with 1.7:1 rockers,
with stock as delivered camshafts too, no others came with that much lift
&
GM used 3.42:1 or 3.73:1 gears were very common place in GM performance cars,
later z28s/Camaros & Chevelles or Vetts
the GM Muscle cars got 4.11:1 in a 12 bolt, hell most Chevelles had 3.08:1 or 3.42:1
unless you ordered the optional 4.11:1 or 3.73:1 in the later 1965's to like 1971's

Naturally aspirated GM Performance engines/'crate engine'
spec part by part would be called today, if they still made them
like the DREC 4.7" bore x 3.60" stroke (to begin with)
Pontiac Big Chief/Oldsmobile GM Corp. 'Pro-stock', 1400 hp/800 ftlbs Tq
dominated the class
had much different/wider (5") bore spread/spacing apart Blocks
& way better/different style 'spread port heads' too
huge camshaft bearings & huge diameter camshafts, long before any others did it

The GM based 'Arias Hemi' rotating assembly based on GM MkIV parts,
for GM Perf. did do well for a time
just expensive, Hemi heads & special blocks, specila complicated valvetrain/rockers etc.
not produced in huge #s,
like the Chrysler Aftermarket Hemis
Arias Parts were extremely hard to get & pricey too
(mostly used in dual engine off-shore boats)

I like both pro-GM BBCs & pro-BBMs,
Even a few select Fords
I don't limit myself to 1 brand, I don't wear blinders
there's plenty of power to be had with both/all 3
I know I could build a 1400hp N/A BBC easily, off the shelf parts
it'd take a lil' more trying/more $$$ & more time & even more CIDs
to the do that with a BBM especially a wedge (not degrading them at all, just facts of life)

albeit most my street/cars have all mostly been MoPars 68-70 BBMs
majority of 13 RRs & 12 Chargers, I have a sweet spot for the 68's especially

Had a bunch of Pontiacs, GTOs, 65 & 70
Firebirds 67-68, Formulas 70-71 or Firehawk or Trans Ams too, Gen 2, 3, 4 1971-2002
both racecars & street/strip cars
Had my share of Olds 442s a 1964 & 65, Buick GSs a 1970 & 71
& Gen 1, 2 & 3 Camaros/z28s too 1967-89


Equal opportunity gearhead
my $1.25

None of the pro stock N/A stuff is GM. It's all aftermarket. The heads DRCE were designed by Warren Johnson from a Ford 351-C.

I race a big Cubic inch Ford TS Thunderbird. Only thing can compete with is the blown Chrysler Hemi.

Ever see a Hemi from the factory is a camaro, chevellle, or vette? Nope GM didn't build one.

Love my 69 Roadrunner I updated with a 440.
My .02

 

[440 PHIXX]

Yeah. I always felt the big block designers looked at the small block Chevy and corrected a lot of the idiosyncrasies. Dry intake, front distributor, external oil pump, deep skirt. But certain big block Chevys are race engines and others even the same displacement are station wagon movers. The L78 396 being a perfect example. Difference from the base 396…forged crankshaft, 4 bolt mains, forged 11:1 compression ratio pistons, solid lifters, square port heads, aluminum intake manifold, 850 Holley carburetor… Chrysler didn’t have the funds to have different crankshafts and heads. So the 383 2 bbl got the same 906 heads the 440 Six Pack had. Also why all the big blocks until ‘71 had forged crankshafts. They all had cast pistons though.

 

[Budnicks]

Since this is the racers forum, I will play devils advocate.
There has to be a reason BBC outnumbers BBM about 100-1 in bracket cars/dragsters.

1,000+ hp single 4bbl BBC combos, doesn't hurt either
it's a follow me now deal, 1 guy does, it they all do it

 

[Budnicks]

The 2 fastest N/A regular bracket cars at our track are chrysler powered. No hurting truths over here . Just smiles. YMMV

Mine was the fastest N/A car at 'Sears Point' on Thursday Night brackets
rarely raced in brackets, more a test & tune session
for a few years, when I had the
Milodon Mastodon Hemi (572) de-stroked to 526cid
with Enderle Bug Catcher or 4 port Hilborn Hat on a Tunnel-ram
on Methanol 7.88 @ 188 best
also a 499cid BBC MkIV injected on methanol
put gas nozzels in it, change the pills & by passes to run Pro-Gas 8.50,
or 7.90 S/E class
or A-Gas Nostalgia stuff, for 1950 bodystyle & earlier

it later had a blown combo too
in both BBC & the Hemi on alcohol

in a Ford Pro-Gas 8.50 car

or the Outlaw P/S 1989 Camaro, 7.0s without the ballast

or 6.90s @ 190 all day, with the 23 Altered, BBC 427cid inj. on methanol
or slow it down & run S/E 7.90 class NHRA
photo is at Sacramento Wed. night IIRC

I added all the below photos, 6/28/25
my 92 Trans-Am (Harry's Galss Carbon Fiber) top-sportsman or Outlaw P/S car, best of 6.69 @ 217 2400#s
shitty photo off a video on the TV, Sacramento Raceway, 1995-ish IIRC 'Fox Hunt' (?)

lil 301 cid (SBC based) Donovan/Mondello head, 23 T AA/Gas 1806#s 6#s/per cid
ran like a bat from hell, when I just turned 18, 1977
(my then Super/Gas 9.90 (9.70s) 67 RS/SS Camaro, pretty-much 'stock out of' the crate form LS7, background)

67 Camaro RS/SS Street car & Now Pro-Gas car & T/S, my 1st doored car to get to 7s, a 7.98 on N2O,
all iron BBC LS7, prof. ported heads, all 0.800"gvl roller valvetrain, with a 350hp shot TopGun
single 4bbl 1050 plate, early 80's,
right after driving it from Cal Expo Car-Craft show, for the Fastest Street Car competition

1988 car built for 7.90 S/E class car, an 87' White Trans Am, Hairy's Glass Carbon-fibor everywhere
running 7.50s 'no breakout' session @ 180-ish N/A Outlaw Pro-Stock event
another shitty photo off a video off the TV screen

 

[6PKRTSE]

Yes, the aftermarket favors the Chevrolet. Yes, you can build more power for less money with all of the big bore space, tall deck mountain motor Chevrolet based options. None of it is still true Chevy. However, no matter how much power one wants to make and how much money one has. Eventually, if you want to be the baddest of the bad on the planet one always goes Hemi.....

 

[F4R/T]

Cost of the Chevy helps it a lot , if it cost as much to build a Chevy the aftermarket would probably be just like Mopar aftermarket. Money drives everything. I have seen many lower end failures on GM engines, the Fords weren’t any better. I just say cost drives a lot and the all build good and bad. Dad always said there is someone faster than you just remember it.

 

[tonysrt]

Lets talk small blocks. When Chevy came out with the 265, they were being put into everything back in the late 50's that was some kind of hot rod. A friend of mine had a 53 Studebaker and put a SBC in it. I don't remember hearing of any polys going into rods back then. Mopar comes out with the 340 and it's the cats meow. I had one in a 71 Duster and it was awesome. So what do they do, drop it and make a 360, but it never made a splash like the 340. I had a 55 Chevy with a 265, I put fuelie heads on it and a bigger cam and it ran great. Drove it from Denver Colorado to NY, about 2000 miles with 4 guys in it and it ran great. I know they detuned the 360 with lower compression and different cam, but I don't remember them being put into anything other than new cars and trucks from Mopar.

 

[Runcharger]

Sort of but that lil 360 in a pickup truck outran what GM and Ford put in their cars in the same manufacturing years. I mean it pushed a barn door pickup truck faster than a same year Corvette for gosh sakes.

 

[F4R/T]

360 the corvette killer—

 

[padam]

360 the corvette killer—

Maybe unmodified smog vetted.

 

[Russ Hood]

1,000+ hp single 4bbl BBC combos, doesn't hurt either
it's a follow me now deal, 1 guy does, it they all do it

Im just not a follower, but everyone should do what they like mopar, Ford, or chevy.

 

[F4R/T]

78 & 79 Vette was slower than a lowly old little red express! Some magazine articles are around on it too!
@chargervert

 

[Runcharger]

Also, remember that LRE licked 454 Chevy and 460 Ford pickups to the curb as well.