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Newer cars are stupid.

ckessel said:
On my 04.5 dually w/Cummins, I had to replace that twice at different times. There was an easy to do procedure for it to learn/be learned to the truck. Mounted under the lh battery. You were really in for a ride if you didn't pay attention when it failed. You had idle or WOT with a very high torque engine.
Click to expand...
I'm not up on modern diesels, so I didn't know they even had a throttle body. All the old stuff we had at work on the railroad ran without one, except for the runaway air shutout plate.
 
It's called a "re-zero" procedure.

The pedal sends a variable voltage signal.

The throttle body (on a gasser; there is none on a diesel) reads and converts that signal to throttle opening angle.

You have to baseline the computer so it knows Xvolts=throttle closed, and Yvolts=full throttle. It also runs through the curve as you press the pedal, so it sees how linear/nonlinear the voltage rise is as you press the pedal, and equates that to throttle opening. Without that information, the throttle has no idea how to react. This is also how those "pedal master" gadgets "change performance" for the cars, by recurving the voltage from a linear increase to an exponential one for "faster throttle response".

On a diesel the APPS tells the ecm how much fuel to deliver.
 
Kern Dog said:
$190 to diagnose and reflash.
I can't blame the shop. They are in business to make money and I'm glad they are there. I've used them with the electronic stuff that I can't figure out for myself.
The man explained it.....The gas pedal sends variable voltage to the throttle body to read. They have to be able to read each other to function properly. He thought it was luck that it started and ran as long as it did without them being "synchronized" or able to read each other in time.
I guess I'm good to go, then, right?
Maybe. I'll drive it and if/when the throttle body decides to crap out, I have my spare. Of course, I will have to get another REflash at that time.
One thing that really annoys me is that stuff like this shakes my confidence in driving long distances. Yeah, I'm way long in the tooth with 411,000 miles but the truck runs smooth. Plenty of power, oil pressure is great, oil consumption isn't bad so I trust the engine. It is the electronic crap that is likely to leave me stranded.
Click to expand...
First of all, all this modern crap has allowed that truck to go 411K miles. The number of old classic cars that went well into the 100,000 mile range was very few compared to modern cars.
Having said that, the electronics can absolutely get "old", especially the parts related to ignition (like coils, for example). I'd say you are doing pretty damn well with this truck!

Kern Dog said:
I mentioned this issue on the Ram truck forum and was corrected....
The gas pedal and throttle body were Recalibrated. The computer was not Reflashed.
Click to expand...
I was going to respond to this, but then @Triplegreen500 answered (and better than I could have). I have to do this procedure on my 70 Road Runner with Fuel Injection. The procedure makes total sense once you understand it.

Triplegreen500 said:
It's called a "re-zero" procedure.

The pedal sends a variable voltage signal.

The throttle body (on a gasser; there is none on a diesel) reads and converts that signal to throttle opening angle.

You have to baseline the computer so it knows Xvolts=throttle closed, and Yvolts=full throttle. It also runs through the curve as you press the pedal, so it sees how linear/nonlinear the voltage rise is as you press the pedal, and equates that to throttle opening. Without that information, the throttle has no idea how to react. This is also how those "pedal master" gadgets "change performance" for the cars, by recurving the voltage from a linear increase to an exponential one for "faster throttle response".

On a diesel the APPS tells the ecm how much fuel to deliver.
Click to expand...
 
HawkRod said:
First of all, all this modern crap has allowed that truck to go 411K miles. The number of old classic cars that went well into the 100,000 mile range was very few compared to modern cars.
Having said that, the electronics can absolutely get "old", especially the parts related to ignition (like coils, for example). I'd say you are doing pretty damn well with this truck!


I was going to respond to this, but then @Triplegreen500 answered (and better than I could have). I have to do this procedure on my 70 Road Runner with Fuel Injection. The procedure makes total sense once you understand it.
Click to expand...
Although I love the old school stuff, and agree that modern day electronics can become a nuisance, I saw first hand the advantages of electronic engines when comparing the two trucks I owned and operated for a living, 30 years difference in technology. My '71 International Transtar, with an 8V71 two stroke diesel rated at 318 horsepower, mechanical injection, got 4 mpg. The 2000 Peterbilt 379, with a C-15 CAT rated at 550 horsepower, ECM with electronic fuel injection, got 5.5 mpg. With fuel prices mostly over $3.00 per gallon, the modern day engine enabled me to make a living.

My C-15 hit the sweet spot for efficiency and reliability. The later versions, built to comply with updated emission requirements were a disaster when it came to reliability, and Caterpillar wisely exited the highway truck engine market in 2008.
 
Last edited:
Kern Dog said:
Are you with me?
Late model cars take what was simple and make it far more complicated than it should be.
Remember when the old cars had mechanical levers and bellcranks for throttle linkage? Later on, cables were used and yes, they worked just fine. Now with pretty much everything being "drive by wire", there is no direct physical connection between the gas pedal and the carburetor/EFI throttle body.
Almost 2 weeks ago, I had to be towed home in this:

View attachment 1875139

I had warning that it was going to have some trouble...

View attachment 1875142

I researched this....it looked like a gas pedal issue. Get this....the gas pedal on this 2007 truck looks like this:

View attachment 1875147

I'd get this icon on the dash:

View attachment 1875151

Sometimes along with this:

View attachment 1875153

By the way....that is NOT a "check engine" light, it is called a Malfunction indicator lamp.
When the red lightning bolt comes up, the gas pedal often goes dead. The engine will start and run but not move off of idle. Since April, the red bolt has come up a few times but when I shut it down and restarted it, it was normal again. I put off repairs until the problem got worse.
Two weeks ago, it did and I had to be towed home in this truck, the first time ever in over 411,000 miles.
At home I swapped in another gas pedal from a junker. It would idle but would not move so I ordered a new one....

View attachment 1875156

View attachment 1875157

I swapped it in yesterday and it seemed fine. I went out to run errands and it failed again...same lights on the dash, same code: P-0122.

View attachment 1875158

I had it towed to a local shop that I trust. I thought that maybe the throttle body itself was maybe bad so this morning, I brought them a spare:


View attachment 1875159

I got a call a few minutes ago....they found the problem and fixed it.
GREAT.....so it was the throttle body?
No, it was not.
It turns out that the computer needed a REflash to mate/recognize the gas pedal.
What the heck, man ?? Reflash for a damned gas pedal? In the time I've owned this truck, I've replaced two transmission shift solenoids, and EGR valve, all the fuel injectors, 2 oxygen sensors and every one of those had some electrical connector so why would the gas pedal need a reflash ?
I'm on my way to go get the truck. This was an instance where simpler would have been better. Combinations like a gas pedal, throttle CABLE and no computer still work just fine.
Click to expand...
you're so right, there are some Lexus that it cost $3000 to replace a headlight, let that sink in
I won't own a newer vehicle with the exception of what my wife wants, not that i can't afford one, just the bad taste in my mouth when something simple or even major prematurely fails, and the cost of parts and labor, jeez
 
Armyvet25 said:
you're so right, there are some Lexus that it cost $3000 to replace a headlight, let that sink in
I won't own a newer vehicle with the exception of what my wife wants, not that i can't afford one, just the bad taste in my mouth when something simple or even major prematurely fails, and the cost of parts and labor, jeez
Click to expand...
I drive a 2002 Lexus I bought in 2011 for $11,000. I freaked out when I spent $300 for a headlight replacement. The bulb was $180, and after spending an afternoon cutting my hands up trying to access the housing, I took it to a shop. The upside of that car has been incredible reliability, with zero repairs besides routine replacement items.

My wife drives a 2007, and it is still a good car, but more issues with updated technology. No way would I own a newer one. I used to laugh at old people driving Crown Vics, now I understand their motivation.
 
Greg, stand in front of your truck while wearing a trench coat and no underwear.:lol:

Newer 6.7 Cummins does have a TB.
 
ckessel said:
Greg, stand in front of your truck while wearing a trench coat and no underwear.:lol:

Newer 6.7 Cummins does have a TB.
Click to expand...
00 Hard pass.png
 
My beater is a '14 Dart I bought new. It's been fairly reliable and served me well over the years. I'm up to 133K miles and live in the rust belt, and the car still looks pretty good with no rust so I can't complain, much.
Like most here I'm sure, I watch a lot of car related videos on YouTube, and one time I stumbled across one where a kid had the steering rack go out on his Dart. He was able to get a replacement from a pick a part, and installed it. But after installing the used steering, he ran into all kinds of issues as the steering trouble light was still lit up on the dash and he couldn't figure out how to get it to go off. It turns out, these units are electronic and "married" to the car they are installed in. It didn't seem like there was any procedure or "flash" or whatever to "marry" the used rack to a different car it was later installed in.
It sounded like the only way one could replace the steering was to buy a brand new one and then it could be "married" to the car it was being installed in.
Even though I am an engineer whose career has mostly been in the automotive and truck industries, this makes no sense to me how that works. I'm a mechanical engineer though, not electrical/electronics.
One issue that has come up with my car that drives me nuts and I have no idea how to fix, is that often the trunk will pop open while the car is sitting there parked. Also, I don't lock the car generally, but often I'll find it locked when I go to open the car door in the morning.
I suspected the key fob might be acting up, and had the second one I got when I bought the car and had never used. So I started using it instead of the other fob I'd been using for 10 years. I didn't have the problem for a month or so with the unused fob, but then it started up again.
I have no idea what is going on or how to fix it. I wish I could just disable the electrical trunk latch and use the key when I want to open the trunk. But there is no key lock for the trunk, buttons on fob or button on dash are the only ways to open the trunk.
Why did they do that, I really didn't find it that burdensome for decades of previous driving to insert a key into a lock to open trunks, now its all electronic, which is fine until it acts up, then you are screwed unless you are some sort of electronics whiz.
 

Mechanic Works on Audi With Nail in Tire. Then He Turns on the Computer​

'European cars are ridiculously over engineered.'​


A simple flat tire on an Audi should be a 10-minute fix. But thanks to today's hyper-connected vehicle systems, a TikTok video showed how it turned into a half-hour ordeal involving fault scans, resets, and drive cycles—all because of a nail.



https://www.motor1.com/news/763868/audi-nail-in-tire-fail/
 
A code can be the fault of other items in the system and not being what the code stands for. A gas pedal code could be the throttle body. So diagnosing can be problematic. Say the mechanic starts replacing parts, gas pedal didn't do it, throttle body replaced, didn't do it, flash the throttle body and its fixed. Does the mechanic put the old parts back on? Probably not and your stuck with a $1,500 bill.

I'm in and out of shops everyday and a lot of these vehicles are driving the mechanics crazy. The diagnosing is the key but the manufacturer makes it very difficult.

2016 Jeep Compass... Intermittent starter engagement. Some will think it's the battery terminal. Then it's the battery. Then it's the alternator. Then it's the impossible to get to starter. Non of this will fix it. It's a hidden micro starter relay found in the front fender well. The one terminal will corrode losing contact. The width of the contact is smaller than the female connector.
20250427_161340.jpg


Cables...how about a blend door actuator. Used to be a cable to mix the temperature. Now it's a little electric brushless motor. Guaranteed to last a year or two and it's all you can do to put your finger on it under the dash.

I could go on.
 
Last edited:
Kern Dog said:
Are you with me?
Late model cars take what was simple and make it far more complicated than it should be.
Remember when the old cars had mechanical levers and bellcranks for throttle linkage? Later on, cables were used and yes, they worked just fine. Now with pretty much everything being "drive by wire", there is no direct physical connection between the gas pedal and the carburetor/EFI throttle body.
Almost 2 weeks ago, I had to be towed home in this:

View attachment 1875139

I had warning that it was going to have some trouble...

View attachment 1875142

I researched this....it looked like a gas pedal issue. Get this....the gas pedal on this 2007 truck looks like this:

View attachment 1875147

I'd get this icon on the dash:

View attachment 1875151

Sometimes along with this:

View attachment 1875153

By the way....that is NOT a "check engine" light, it is called a Malfunction indicator lamp.
When the red lightning bolt comes up, the gas pedal often goes dead. The engine will start and run but not move off of idle. Since April, the red bolt has come up a few times but when I shut it down and restarted it, it was normal again. I put off repairs until the problem got worse.
Two weeks ago, it did and I had to be towed home in this truck, the first time ever in over 411,000 miles.
At home I swapped in another gas pedal from a junker. It would idle but would not move so I ordered a new one....

View attachment 1875156

View attachment 1875157

I swapped it in yesterday and it seemed fine. I went out to run errands and it failed again...same lights on the dash, same code: P-0122.

View attachment 1875158

I had it towed to a local shop that I trust. I thought that maybe the throttle body itself was maybe bad so this morning, I brought them a spare:


View attachment 1875159

I got a call a few minutes ago....they found the problem and fixed it.
GREAT.....so it was the throttle body?
No, it was not.
It turns out that the computer needed a REflash to mate/recognize the gas pedal.
What the heck, man ?? Reflash for a damned gas pedal? In the time I've owned this truck, I've replaced two transmission shift solenoids, and EGR valve, all the fuel injectors, 2 oxygen sensors and every one of those had some electrical connector so why would the gas pedal need a reflash ?
I'm on my way to go get the truck. This was an instance where simpler would have been better. Combinations like a gas pedal, throttle CABLE and no computer still work just fine.
Click to expand...

Friends 2016 Compass had that light and it was the throttle body. You never know.
ETC 2A.jpg

Went through two new ones before getting a good one. That's another big issue working on newer vehicles today.
 
XS22J8R said:
My beater is a '14 Dart I bought new. It's been fairly reliable and served me well over the years. I'm up to 133K miles and live in the rust belt, and the car still looks pretty good with no rust so I can't complain, much.
Like most here I'm sure, I watch a lot of car related videos on YouTube, and one time I stumbled across one where a kid had the steering rack go out on his Dart. He was able to get a replacement from a pick a part, and installed it. But after installing the used steering, he ran into all kinds of issues as the steering trouble light was still lit up on the dash and he couldn't figure out how to get it to go off. It turns out, these units are electronic and "married" to the car they are installed in. It didn't seem like there was any procedure or "flash" or whatever to "marry" the used rack to a different car it was later installed in.
It sounded like the only way one could replace the steering was to buy a brand new one and then it could be "married" to the car it was being installed in.
Even though I am an engineer whose career has mostly been in the automotive and truck industries, this makes no sense to me how that works. I'm a mechanical engineer though, not electrical/electronics.
One issue that has come up with my car that drives me nuts and I have no idea how to fix, is that often the trunk will pop open while the car is sitting there parked. Also, I don't lock the car generally, but often I'll find it locked when I go to open the car door in the morning.
I suspected the key fob might be acting up, and had the second one I got when I bought the car and had never used. So I started using it instead of the other fob I'd been using for 10 years. I didn't have the problem for a month or so with the unused fob, but then it started up again.
I have no idea what is going on or how to fix it. I wish I could just disable the electrical trunk latch and use the key when I want to open the trunk. But there is no key lock for the trunk, buttons on fob or button on dash are the only ways to open the trunk.
Why did they do that, I really didn't find it that burdensome for decades of previous driving to insert a key into a lock to open trunks, now its all electronic, which is fine until it acts up, then you are screwed unless you are some sort of electronics whiz.
Click to expand...
Looks like it could be the trunk latch itself. And living in the Chicagoland area, I betcha dollars to donuts there's rust in theres somewheres...

 
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