Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
Okay, 31581 road race pan and 21215 pump cover are on the way. I'll snap some pics when I mock up the spare k member at the engine shop.
Please Critique 511 Stroker Oil System
- Thread starter Jeremiah
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Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
It's hard to say because not many engines with Edelbrock victor heads have been built/dyno'd/raced. I'm hoping it will make over 650hp with a 4150 carb on pump gas. I'd like to put it in the 9's on DOT tires.
If I were to do this again I'd probably move right to a paired rocker arm setup ( i.e. T&D or Jesel ) due to the problems with the geometry at a 2.00" installed valve spring height which is needed for this kind of lift. Even Dave Hughes told me to run a smaller cam because of these issues. It seemed really dopey to have these heads that supposedly flow 380CFM @.700 lift and not be able to put a cam in that has enough lift to take advantage of the flow. That was when I started talking to http://www.b3racingengines.com/ , who at that point was the only person to listen to me.
Using his offset rocker shaft spacers fixed my geometry woes and also helped the rocker to retainer clearance issues that arose when using a +.050 valve lock and retainer (which all measure different BTW) to get a 2" installed height. At that point, once again, everybody I talked to said to find a way to make it work with 1.950" installed height but we could not find an endurance valve spring with spring pressures that would work (240-260 seat, 720-760 @ full lift). Based on what I read from Hughes Engines web site these heads could use a 1.625" spring and that's what we were shooting for. I ended up using a 1.600" diameter Isky 9999-RAD tool room spring in the end.
I also ordered about $300 in retainers and valve locks from Manley and Comp to figure out something that would get me the installed height I needed. If anyone ever wants to rent it with a deposit for mocking up an engine it's here waiting. Anyway, long story short if I were doing it again I'd probably buy Indy wedge heads (NOT directly from Indy) and send them somewhere (NOT Indy) to be ported and again set up for a paired ($$$) rocker system.
Essentially, this is what I learned:
-The cylinder head manufacturer knows nothing beyond the parts that they sell. I.E. Edelbrock never even heard of Manley or Isky.
-The people that port the heads know nothing of the head's installed valve spring height, rocker geometry or rocker to retainer clearance past the point where they ran into trouble and stopped working. If I wanted to run a .650 lift cam I'd have chosen standard port Edelbrock RPM"s. Also, when you try to figure it out and want to order a bunch of single valve locks and retainers they act like it's a Federal case. Dave Hughes, I'm talking to you, not that you care.
-The people that make the rocker arms know nothing of the heads, target installed height, etc.
-The people that make the valve springs seem to know nothing of valve locks, valves and spring retainers. PSI did try to help me out.
I'm on my third engine shop and have about 30 catalogs in paper and PDF that are beat to death from trying to get this all figures out. You are better off memorizing the catalogs, taking lots of notes and be prepared to speak with a representative from (pick a company) that doesn't seem to know anything about cars at all.
If we all went to work everyday and said "well, it won't work" and gave up this thing in front of me would be a stone tablet. That's my metaphor for why Mopars are not competitive in heads up racing (in most cases).
/rant off
ps I still actually like this hobby regardless of all the above BS we went through with this project lol.
If I were to do this again I'd probably move right to a paired rocker arm setup ( i.e. T&D or Jesel ) due to the problems with the geometry at a 2.00" installed valve spring height which is needed for this kind of lift. Even Dave Hughes told me to run a smaller cam because of these issues. It seemed really dopey to have these heads that supposedly flow 380CFM @.700 lift and not be able to put a cam in that has enough lift to take advantage of the flow. That was when I started talking to http://www.b3racingengines.com/ , who at that point was the only person to listen to me.
Using his offset rocker shaft spacers fixed my geometry woes and also helped the rocker to retainer clearance issues that arose when using a +.050 valve lock and retainer (which all measure different BTW) to get a 2" installed height. At that point, once again, everybody I talked to said to find a way to make it work with 1.950" installed height but we could not find an endurance valve spring with spring pressures that would work (240-260 seat, 720-760 @ full lift). Based on what I read from Hughes Engines web site these heads could use a 1.625" spring and that's what we were shooting for. I ended up using a 1.600" diameter Isky 9999-RAD tool room spring in the end.
I also ordered about $300 in retainers and valve locks from Manley and Comp to figure out something that would get me the installed height I needed. If anyone ever wants to rent it with a deposit for mocking up an engine it's here waiting. Anyway, long story short if I were doing it again I'd probably buy Indy wedge heads (NOT directly from Indy) and send them somewhere (NOT Indy) to be ported and again set up for a paired ($$$) rocker system.
Essentially, this is what I learned:
-The cylinder head manufacturer knows nothing beyond the parts that they sell. I.E. Edelbrock never even heard of Manley or Isky.
-The people that port the heads know nothing of the head's installed valve spring height, rocker geometry or rocker to retainer clearance past the point where they ran into trouble and stopped working. If I wanted to run a .650 lift cam I'd have chosen standard port Edelbrock RPM"s. Also, when you try to figure it out and want to order a bunch of single valve locks and retainers they act like it's a Federal case. Dave Hughes, I'm talking to you, not that you care.
-The people that make the rocker arms know nothing of the heads, target installed height, etc.
-The people that make the valve springs seem to know nothing of valve locks, valves and spring retainers. PSI did try to help me out.
I'm on my third engine shop and have about 30 catalogs in paper and PDF that are beat to death from trying to get this all figures out. You are better off memorizing the catalogs, taking lots of notes and be prepared to speak with a representative from (pick a company) that doesn't seem to know anything about cars at all.
If we all went to work everyday and said "well, it won't work" and gave up this thing in front of me would be a stone tablet. That's my metaphor for why Mopars are not competitive in heads up racing (in most cases).
/rant off
ps I still actually like this hobby regardless of all the above BS we went through with this project lol.
Wouldn't been a hell of a lot simpler to build the motor with ported Indy -1? Why did you use the Victors, just curious.
Doug
Doug
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
Well, to be honest nobody had really tried and I decided to take the plunge. My total cost involved in the CNC ported heads, with shipping, is about $2500. Also I was a victim of the "Aeroheads" scam when I was about 20 or so and never really cared for Indy after that. They treat grown men wanting to spend $30k like dirt; you can only imagine how they treated a somewhat (aka extremely) naive kid.
Now we all know (if you were following my fun filled threads) what is up with these heads. Next we will find out how they dyno and after that it's time to go whoop some *** for money.
I have a second, identical short block that will get ported -1's w/ a Jesel paired rocker setup. If we end up using it as a backup for the red car I'll start looking into a 572 B1 deal and adapting the Indy t-ram to the B1's. This setup will be backed by the Lenco 4-speed in the black '66 Charger.
At this point it's been a good learning experience that follows most of my other life experiences.
For instance, did anyone ever publish any data on how the different retainers measure up? Hell no. The answer is always to go to the popular engine builder and blindly let them spend your money.
Thanks to guys like you and others in this thread I'm getting this thing done. Who knows, if it runs right maybe I'll scrape together some cash and do a set of Victors with a paired rocker system. I have reminded myself a few times throughout this that the 440-1's probably had guys like me ripping their hair out when they first came out too. It's always a bumpy road for the first few miles with newly released parts.
So that begs the question: What do YOU think it will make Doug?
It always amazed me that a company as well established as Edelbrock could screw this up. Design a nice flowing head with no thought that it needs valve train.
Doug
Doug
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
Agreed! The ironic part is that there isn't really that much work to be done. If I was marketing the Victors I'd do the following:
1) Offer heads with milled off stands as well as heads set up for a paired rocker shaft setup (Jesel, T&D, etc.) No reinventing the wheel, simple machining for known, readily available parts.
2) Offer the head with choices of longer valves. This would help the retainer to rocker clearance by negating the use of +.050 locks or retainers as well as help the scrub pattern on larger camshafts.
3) Sharpen the tooling more often. Set #1 was embarrassing to show and tell they were so rough.
4) Supply longer rocker shaft studs that use all of the threads in the hole. 3.5" OAL would do it with 1" of thread on each end.
5) Open up the pushrod holes at the factory for not only clearance issues but also for oil drain back.
6) Fix the chamber on the newer versions. The first heart shaped chamber was much more advanced according to all of the internet experts.
7) Maybe it would be a good idea to test your product and make a recipe of parts that will work (offset lifters, rocker arms, etc.) It can't be that hard if I did it out here in the woods lol.
8) Tell customer service that just because most performance valve springs with roller cam friendly pressures "should" fit on the head at a 2.00" installed height this is not a possibility. These heads are designed to use a stock installed height right out of the FSM.
There are sure to be many reasons why some of the suggestions above may not be possible. My question is who in the heck has all of this money to blindly order parts and hope they fit? It's hard enough to justify a $10-15k engine that you plan to abuse in the first place. Having to buy 1.5x that to get it running is ridiculous. This isn't a product stemming from lack of knowledge either. This issue is bred by lack of communication and documentation on the manufacturer's part.
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
Update!
My pile of parts is growing! All we are waiting on now are oil pan gaskets, -12 90" sockletless fittings and some black -12 Aeroquip AQP socketless hose. I am very impressed by the quality of these parts and feel that they are well worth the money. Hopefully this will keep me out of trouble in the future.
My pile of parts is growing! All we are waiting on now are oil pan gaskets, -12 90" sockletless fittings and some black -12 Aeroquip AQP socketless hose. I am very impressed by the quality of these parts and feel that they are well worth the money. Hopefully this will keep me out of trouble in the future.
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