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R134A issues and alternatives

Be careful in using the Envirotemp drop in replacement, read the info completely before using. You won't need to pull a vacuum if I remember correctly and its real easy to over charge. If you have a sight glass system and charge till its clear that is WAY overcharged and you will soon bust a hose. Been using it for years, love it, no complaints what so ever.
 
I live in Washington. My solutuion: when I went to Hot August Nights in Reno NV, I bought 8 cans.

Its not illegal to possess it. Just illegal to sell it in those convenient 12oz cans.

Its illegal to ship it in, also.

One loophole is farmers can buy it to service field chillers for produce, so I expect you might find some at a COOP store.
 
GrabberOrange69 said:
I live in Washington. My solutuion: when I went to Hot August Nights in Reno NV, I bought 8 cans.

Its not illegal to possess it. Just illegal to sell it in those convenient 12oz cans.

Its illegal to ship it in, also.

One loophole is farmers can buy it to service field chillers for produce, so I expect you might find some at a COOP store.
Click to expand...
I am with you and I was planning on doing something very similar. I did rear about being able to get it at "farm" stores.
 
70chall440 said:
You typed 12 but their website says 21+
Click to expand...
I pull a vacuum and used the directions on the label. I may have overcharged it a bit, but it's an old leaky system so I'm probably good now. Lol. I watched the pressures and they were a little low for the ambient temp, so I'm probably fine. The air it puts out is much cooler than straight r134a.
 
What about publishing some operating pressures and discharge temps for the various euphemisms that were stated, such as: "blows cold", "blows ice chips", and similar expletives. I feel sorry for the individuals that use and proclaim the virtues of the PROPANE based refrigerants and their derivatives. These materials are too flammable and dangerous for me and will not consider their use in any of my vehicles. The use of R-1234YF, is already in use by many high end vehicles and successfully. Sure, its INITIALLY expensive, but so are many new products. Has anyone even considered using anhydrous NH3 or CO2? Both refrigerants have a boiling point of approximately -21°F, similar to R12 and R134A. Both refrigerants exhibit excellent specific heat characteristics as well as moderate operating pressures, but will likely require compressors with greater displacement and condensers with greater surface area to operate successfully. Just talking out loud.....
BOB RENTON
 
While I have owned AC equipped vehicles for many years (like most) I have to admit that I am pretty uneducated about it. I have recharged systems in a vehicle of my vehicles successfully but am not having to educate myself how they actually work, what is required, etc. since I am putting AC into my 71.
 
Isn't "Enviro-Safe" actually butane/propane?

I tried to add it to my Dakota, and it belched it back out the high side valve after about 20 minutes.

Very odd.

Pretty sure when I actually read the label, it said not to mix.
 
134a is actually pretty cheap here.

IIRC on sale for $5.99/12oz last year, and regular $7.99-$8.99 without dye or leak stop.
 
All the advertisements for the product I've seen and read, say the product performs as good as other refrigerants and is compatible, providing you are refilling an empty system, especially a refrigerant reclamation device, then it will contaminate the system. I've not seen any typical normal or nominal operating data, such as pressures and temperatures, either expressed as BTu/Hr or killoCalorie/Hr........everything EXCEPT what the compound actually is, or its composition. Why not ask for the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) as required by FEDERAL law to be furnished when requested. Rather, we (some of us anyhow) are all too willing to accept unsubstantiated claims (such as: Waldo Bummephuche says..."this is good stuff and works great".....or "blows cold air since installation") without documentation of its performance....just subjective opinions. Sort of like the old P.T. Barnum's expression about undocumented expression of acceptance (as in "a sucker is born every minute" or similar reference)...... Perhaps, the users of the flammable refrigerants would put a sign on their vehicle, so I won't park my vehicle anywhere near their car...... Just my opinion of course.....
BOB RENTON
 
Bob - while I appreciate your comments and desire to see hard data (which you now have posted several times) I think you need to take it down a notch or 2. The SDS is listed on the website if you care to look. Yes it is flammable which they readily admit, however in my case I do not have a lot of options really and this is one of them.

I am slightly confused by your statement about filling an empty system. I think you are saying that if someone was using a refrigerant reclamation device/machine and removed some Enviro-safe that it would then contaminate that machine/device. This is not an issue for me since I do not have such a device. My intention is to possibly use it to fill a brand new system in the 71 I am building and perhaps regenerate some of the other older systems I have which from reading about the product on the company's website along with a member's recommendation and experiences it seems I can do.

Oh and as far as not wanting to park next to someone using this or a similar product, let's be real as vehicles in general are pretty flammable given that they contain an ignition device (battery), many potential triggers (wiring) and a heap of fuel sources (gasoline, carpet, sound deadener, etc.). I do not think that a vehicle using Enviro-Safe or similar product is any more dangerous than anything else. Its like saying you won't own a house next to another house that uses gas heat or even has a propane grille.

I am not trying to start some controversy or argument here, I do agree that it would be nice to have some numbers such as "with R123A my AC was blowing at X deg F and now with Enviro-safe it blows at Y degrees F", however despite the lack of this data I am still interested in the product given my current situation.
 
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70chall440 said:
Bob - while I appreciate your comments and desire to see hard data (which you now have posted several times) I think you need to take it down a notch or 2. The SDS is listed on the website if you care to look. Yes it is flammable which they readily admit, however in my case I do not have a lot of options really and this is one of them.

I am slightly confused by your statement about filling an empty system. I think you are saying that if someone was using a refrigerant reclamation device/machine and removed some Enviro-safe that it would then contaminate that machine/device. This is not an issue for me since I do not have such a device. My intention is to possibly use it to fill a brand new system in the 71 I am building and perhaps regenerate some of the other older systems I have which from reading about the product on the company's website along with a member's recommendation and experiences it seems I can do.

Oh and as far as not wanting to park next to someone using this or a similar product, let's be real as vehicles in general are pretty flammable given that they contain an ignition device (battery), many potential triggers (wiring) and a heap of fuel sources (gasoline, carpet, sound deadener, etc.). I do not think that a vehicle using Enviro-Safe or similar product is any more dangerous than anything else. Its like saying you won't own a house next to another house that uses gas heat or even has a propane grille.

I am not trying to start some controversy or argument here, I do agree that it would be nice to have some numbers such as "with R123A my AC was blowing at X deg F and now with Enviro-safe it blows at Y degrees F", however despite the lack of this data I am still interested in the product given my current situation.
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YES.....from the Envirosafe site. I believe it refers to the residual oil and product, contaminating vacuum pump. How is it possible to ACCURATELY compare performance between two variables UNLESS thru data analysis. Subjective references, like: "blows really cold".....means nothing......colder than what? An A/C system's performance is measured by heat removal over a period of time.....how much (Btu) / time (hour).
ASHRAE standards and guidelines include uniform methods of testing for rating purposes, describe recommended practices in designing and installing equipment and provide other information to guide the industry.
The American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers is an American professional association seeking to advance heating, ventilation, air conditioning and refrigeration systems design and construction. ASHRAE has more than 57,000 members in more than 132 countries worldwide.

A rethorical question regarding the use of the product: if is more economical to use or safer to use, why doesn't the automotive industry support its use? Or.....if you're happy with the product results, great.....for me, I choose not to use it.

And I'll stick to the science and engineering standards of ASHRAE and thermodynamics..... Just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON
 
Thats all great Bob, but I don't need to see reams of data to try out a product. I understand the position but I do not ask for nor look for the MDS on every chemical I use in my shop or on my vehicles. As of this writing it is still America where you can decide to use whatever you like, you choose not to (your right), others choose to (their right).

All that said and to reiterate, I have limited options so I am attempting to select something that works (without having to read a pile of data, hence this thread).
 
70chall440 said:
Thats all great Bob, but I don't need to see reams of data to try out a product. I understand the position but I do not ask for nor look for the MDS on every chemical I use in my shop or on my vehicles. As of this writing it is still America where you can decide to use whatever you like, you choose not to (your right), others choose to (their right).

All that said and to reiterate, I have limited options so I am attempting to select something that works (without having to read a pile of data, hence this thread).
Click to expand...
What are your "limited options" ?? Since you're an automotive person, I trust that you do your due diligence (research) when it comes to a cam selection for performance or a rear end ratio to use for your vehicle. The same aspect would apply to refrigerant selection.....what are your expectations ? Cost cannot only be part of the decision making process....performance, availability, ease of use.....and performance. BTW.....unless you request the MSDS for whatever product or chemical used.....possible carcinogenic chemicals can be introduced. MSDSs are furnished free of charge by the manufacturer.....many businesses have a library of data sheets for their employees to use, should they ask.....FYI.
BOB RENTON
 
My "limitations" are the laws in my state as I have mentioned. R134a has been banned for resale here, sure I could source it illegally from outside the state or perhaps obtain it from agriculture stores since they are still allowed to sell small quantities for the farming community, however, R134a is not available from any auto parts store which is the reason I started this thread.

You seem very hung up on the MDS thing so I have to ask, do you obtain them for your WD40, PB Blaster, oil of your choice, thinner you get from the store, rubbing alcohol, spray paint, etc.? If you do, good on you but in my case (and I would suspect many others) I have no interest in reading them because I intend to use them anyway. That said, I did in fact look at the MDS for Enviro-safe prior to buying but merely because I happened to open that page.

I will say it again, do as you like and I will do as I like and in this case I decided to order some Enviro-safe and will most likely use it in many of my vehicles unless some information comes to light that changes my mind (and no it will not be the MDS).
 
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