Rockers still "clacking"

[John Tipps]

This is what I have on the 440-
Trick Flo heads
roller rockers
Comp cam and lifters
Problem-
Once assembled I put a full turn on rockers, ran badly on startup until warm and then decent,
Upon being advised I adjusted them to zero lash just to see what I had from there, same thing, ran badly cold (with a few seconds of light clacking) and decent when hot,
being advised by a Mopar guy I put 1/4 turn on them (cold engine) and the clacking actually got worse, so I put a half turn on them (warm) and the clacking and erratic startup got even worse, also while Im adjusting one rocker, the one next to it thats depressed begins to rise about half of its distance and the pushrods are very easy to push down making the rocker lightly touching at zero lash-sorry for the long post but im trying to get it all in to take care of some questions ahead o time, any suggestions?

 

[hunt2elk]

I just had pretty much the same thing happen. The engine builder thinks the lifters are junk. He is getting me a new set to try, hope that is the problem.

 

[beanhead]

What type of hydraulic cam is it, roller or flat tappet? What is the P/N of the lifters?
How's your oiling situation, and what type are you using?
Pressure within limits at start-up?
Is this a new build? Was everything cleaned obsessively?
Are you setting preload from zero lash, by adjusting the Intake valve when the Exhaust valve is just opening, and the Exhaust valve when that cylinder's Intake valve is closing?

It *sounds* like the lifters aren't oiling ('pumping up')...
Just to name a few possible suspects...wrong oil, plugged oiling holes, lifter oil band becoming exposed and bleeding pressure, worn lifter bores bleeding pressure, bad lifter(s), or....gulp...flattened cam lobes..
Start by checking the easiest stuff first!

 

[PRHeads]

cam part number?

Which spring package came with your heads?

 

[John Tipps]

What type of hydraulic cam is it, roller or flat tappet? What is the P/N of the lifters?
How's your oiling situation, and what type are you using?
Pressure within limits at start-up?
Is this a new build? Was everything cleaned obsessively?
Are you setting preload from zero lash, by adjusting the Intake valve when the Exhaust valve is just opening, and the Exhaust valve when that cylinder's Intake valve is closing?

It *sounds* like the lifters aren't oiling ('pumping up')...
Just to name a few possible suspects...wrong oil, plugged oiling holes, lifter oil band becoming exposed and bleeding pressure, worn lifter bores bleeding pressure, bad lifter(s), or....gulp...flattened cam lobes..
Start by checking the easiest stuff first!

 

[John Tipps]

The Hyd cam kit is comp cam and lifters CL21-224-4, stock oil pump, oil pressure good at startup, top end rebuild only and yes cleaned well, the lash was set as you say, oil is 15w40, springs came w heads TF 240

 

[John Tipps]

cam part number?

Which spring package came with your heads?

Comp Cams CL21-224-4
Springs w heads TF 240

 

[John Tipps]

I just had pretty much the same thing happen. The engine builder thinks the lifters are junk. He is getting me a new set to try, hope that is the problem.

Pulling my hair out-never had this problem w simple valve adjust before

 

[John Tipps]

Pulling my hair out-never had this problem w simple valve adjust before

They make more noise at 1/2 turn than they do at zero-WTF?

 

[beanhead]

The Hyd cam kit is comp cam and lifters CL21-224-4, stock oil pump, oil pressure good at startup, top end rebuild only and yes cleaned well, the lash was set as you say, oil is 15w40, springs came w heads TF 240

Okay thanks. Which 240 heads? Different part-numbered heads come with different springs.
Were the cam and lifters new, and if so how did you break them in?
Lot of questions I know but we wanna help you get to the bottom of this...

 

[John Tipps]

Not sure what the number is on the 240's, ordered from summit for BB Mopar, yes cam etc were new and broke in w comp cam break in lube at 2000 to 2500 rpm for 30min

 

[beanhead]

Okay, well there's a chance the springs are too stiff for that cam. And hopefully you removed the inner coils during break-in....If you can't get it solved by adjusting valves, you might need to pull the intake back off and have a look at the lifters...sucks, I know.

 

[John Tipps]

Yes I pulled the inner springs during breakin and haven't replaced them yet, what makes it so easy to push the pushrods down when their pumped up?

 

[PRHeads]

Hyd lifters these days are a total crap shoot.

Sounds like what you have in there have a fairly high bleed rate(like what a variable duration lifter would have).
It’s unlikely any amount adjustment will make them “quiet”.

Unfortunately, the only true “slow bleed” lifters available anymore come from Hylift Johnson, and they’re quite pricey.

In theory, any decent “normal” lifters would work okay in your application.

Hughes is a dealer for Hylift Johnson....... might be worth a call to see if they have anything on hand.
Hylift Johnson makes; normal, fast bleed, and slow bleed lifters.

All that being said, those cams aren’t known for being very quiet.

 

[hunt2elk]

Hyd lifters these days are a total crap shoot.

Sounds like what you have in there have a fairly high bleed rate(like what a variable duration lifter would have).
It’s unlikely any amount adjustment will make them “quiet”.

Unfortunately, the only true “slow bleed” lifters available anymore come from Hylift Johnson, and they’re quite pricey.

In theory, and decent “normal” lifters would work okay in your application.

Hughes is a dealer for Hylift Johnson....... might be worth a call to see if they have anything on hand.
Hylift Johnson makes; normal, fast bleed, and slow bleed lifters.

All that being said, those cams aren’t known for being very quiet.

Johnson lifters are very hard to find right now. Supposedly they are making me a set and shipping them out next week. Hope so....

 

[Curiousyellow71]

Another lifter option since you have adjustable valvetrain is rhoads Vmax lifters. The bodies are made by hylift Johnson. With the vmax you can adjust them at the top of the travel causing them to act like a solid lifter at the upper rpm and gain some rpm and possibly more hp.
The exhaust on a XE is a different slower closing profile then the intake. It would be interesting to know if your noise changes on 1/2 turn on intake vs exhaust. Most noise on fast rate profiles is from the intake. The last comp lifters we installed were noisy at start up as well. Since we switched to rhoads we havn't had issues....Yet

 

[PRHeads]

Not helpful I know, but I prefer to just avoid the hyd lifter woes altogether.

Solids for me please.

They’re often quieter than some fast rate hyd stuff, and what noise there is....... just sounds “better”(IMO of course).

 

[Curiousyellow71]

Not helpful I know, but I prefer to just avoid the hyd lifter woes altogether.

Solids for me please.

They’re often quieter than some fast “better”(IMO of course).

The only time we ever consider a hydraulic is when the budget doesn't allow for adjustable valve train or when we are trying to do a variable duration to gain some torque like using rhoads. IF the build requires a hydraulic lifter...we do not run anything comp has in a hydr flat tappet. We will run their cams...but not there lifters.

Imo...using hydraulic lifters with expensive adjustable valve train meant for a solid cam just doesn't make sense, especially when using lifters that are not a quality item. Go solid or better yet..solid roller.

 

[John Tipps]

Well upwards to $3000 later, with gaskets,water pump,lube and the nightmare of installation (headers on a BB Mopar) I’m stuck with an engine that runs like s#%! and sounds like somebody beating on a tin roof- I wish I’d just stayed with the stock setup and concentrated on the bodywork, I’ll keep trying to find a Mopar guy here local and thanks to everybody for the help.

 

[WileERobby]

I have to ask a basic question. What was the reason to change from the stock setup ? What is the pushrod length ?