Strange spark plug problem. I can't get #3 threaded in properly.

[Budnicks]

When using anti-seize,
the "wet torque" value is like (?) 20% lower,
than usual "dry torque" values std.s,
less torque is needed, wet
instead of 14#s more like 10#-11#s (don't over tighten them)
regardless of style of plugs,
gasket style (old MoPars, shitload of foreign/Japanese stuff)
or tapper seated (GM/Ford etc.)
(Certain Ford engines have real issues with plugs sticking/breaking off in the head)

I've use it on every style of engine since (probably way earlier) 1974,
I remember stepdad Bob, telling me "make sure to use anti-seize"
using it, at about 10-ish on my Tecumseh engine in my
Taco 44 mini-bike sparkplug (7hp Motor out of a rototiller)
especially on 2 stroke or 4 stroke engines
"especially if you are taking the plugs in & out a lot",
(Like 2 stroke engines or racecars, especially heads up/pro classes)
Used it in/on a Mastodon Hemi, BBC SBC BBM SBM BBF SBF MG/BL
& almost any car, truck, O/B, M/C, Kawi, Yamaha, Honda, Husky, CZ.
Merc/Evinrude, my mini-bikes, my quads, chainsaws, lawn mowers,
rototillers, snow blowers, cast iron or alum, etc. etc. etc.
I've 'never ever' had any plug seize/stick because of Anti-seize...

I have used Nickle stuff, I like to use on cast iron,
it's pricey **** 4 times the price
Copper (Loctite stick/tube I have must be 40 years old now) is OK
if I don't have Nickle stuff handy for cast iron or alum
or dissimilar metals
& ol' trusty aluminum/Anti-seize in 8oz brush on bottle,
'that **** that gets everywhere'

most old true/real mechanics even some newer guys,
that have run into stuck or hard to remove dry installed plugs
will say/tell you the same thing
**'use it sparingly', it works

IMO it's a mandatory on alum heads
or stainless bolts/any threads going into aluminum, visa versa, titanium etc. especially
or any type of dissimilar materials

Almost all/every spark plug mfgr say *'not recommended',
Most newer mfgr'd spark plugs 'have a coating baked in/on the threads' already
(Quality Control sucks *** today, it doesn't work as well as it should)
'that's supposedly' to help stop them NOT sticking in the threads
(As some will verify here, it doesn't always work as advertised)
No matter if compression thread/tapper seat or gasketed before the threads
*More/mainly for legal reasons, than 'truth of function',
to cover their own *** mode
(** mostly for reasons below)
*Mostly because people gob it on thinking a lil' is good a ton is great
**you never want to get 'anti-seize' near the electrodes/near the 1st few starting threads
use it mostly in the middle of the threads

**need to keep the anti-seize away from the 1st couple threads
& especially away from the electrode, always

Use it lightly/sparingly too, 'a lil' dab will do ya'
(Remember, like Vitalis for the old greaser dudes)

(On brakes/sliders pins etc., you need to use extreme heat for brakes stuff,
I suppose you could use the same stuff on spark plugs too)

Any Anti-seize (Nickle, copper or alum.) is a form of lubricant as to torque values
many people/even skilled mechanics, when using it 'over torque' the stuff,
they use it on
dry torque & wet torque are different

sorry if;
I went a lil' overly **** retentive on the ****...


Good luck Steve/Biomedcruzdude

 

[Photon440]

I just use oil, usually a drop from the end of the dipstick. Never a stuck plug, even in aluminum heads.

 

[RJRENTON]

I just use oil, usually a drop from the end of the dipstick. Never a stuck plug, even in aluminum heads.

IMO..using oil, grease or similar lubricant, at elevated temperatures, can carbonize on the lowest threads (hottest), which can make plug difficult to remove without damaging the head threads/plug threads. As far as which anti-seize compounds.....the best is the nickel based compounds...and the highest temperature rating of 2200°F. The cost differential between graphite, copper and nickel is negligible....use the best....it just takes a little dab on the plug threads. The standard container will last for YEARS. Remember cost is relativel to the hassle factor of not using it.......just my opinion of course....
BOB RENTON

 

[WileERobby]

IMO..using oil, grease or similar lubricant, at elevated temperatures, can carbonize on the lowest threads (hottest), which can make plug difficult to remove without damaging the head threads/plug threads. As far as which anti-seize compounds.....the best is the nickel based compounds...and the highest temperature rating of 2200°F. The cost differential between graphite, copper and nickel is negligible....use the best....it just takes a little dab on the plug threads. The standard container will last for YEARS. Remember cost is relativel to the hassle factor of not using it.......just my opinion of course....
BOB RENTON

Could not agree more. Started using anti-seize 50 years ago... still do.

 

[biomedtechguy]

IMO..using oil, grease or similar lubricant, at elevated temperatures, can carbonize on the lowest threads (hottest), which can make plug difficult to remove without damaging the head threads/plug threads.

No disrespect intended to Photon440, but I agree with Bob Renton on this, just from a chemical perspective.

cost is relativel to the hassle factor of not using it.

In this example, cost of the product (anti-seize) is not a factor vs the multitude of benefits, and time is my most valuable asset, which the problem I'm having is reeking havoc upon.
Tomorrow should tell the tale as I'm "gettin' with it" and hopefully once this PITA #3 is done I'll finish the other 5 I have left.
ALSO...
This spark plugs change was just my "next" step to fix the really bad running problem I had that I only discovered the week of Cruisin the Coast!

 

[Hemirunner]

I've had no problem with Autolites, a significant number of Mopar people use them, my local engine builder recommended them, as did a couple of other "gurus". I have a 572 in the process of getting all the components together to have built, and the builder in Florida has a lot of them, and more are paid for, still more to buy, but the point is I hope to retire the 440 within the next year. The aluminum block and heads in the 572 will eventually get either platinum or iridium spark plugs, but I may start with Autolites until I have my A/F ratio and heat range figured out. I will very likely use spark plug specific anti seize on them.

From a functional standpoint, there’s no issues with Autolite spark plugs. Assuming you know the correct heat range, thread/tip configuration needed, it’ll light the mixture just fine. From a tuning standpoint, they’re worthless. I find them to be the most difficult plug to read out of all the major brands. NGK seem to be the preferred plug to tune with by everyone with a decent amount of tuning experience. The cadmium coating on the threads and tip make it easy to read the spark line on the tip and the heat line in the threads. We cut the threads off to view the A/F markings on the base of the porcelain. Just my .02 on spark plugs.

 

[padam]

YES! I believe that I'm going to have to use the "reverse thread chaser" that was linked to, it has a center fluted "spreader" that appears to allow the threaded end to be inserted into the spark plug hole, then as the fluted part is pulled into the 4 way split threaded area, it expands the diameter to fit into the threads. Rotate ccw as though you're removing it, and it "cleans" the threads on the way out, WITH the several times recommended grease to grab the shrapnel.

I've had no problem with Autolites, a significant number of Mopar people use them, my local engine builder recommended them, as did a couple of other "gurus". I have a 572 in the process of getting all the components together to have built, and the builder in Florida has a lot of them, and more are paid for, still more to buy, but the point is I hope to retire the 440 within the next year. The aluminum block and heads in the 572 will eventually get either platinum or iridium spark plugs, but I may start with Autolites until I have my A/F ratio and heat range figured out. I will very likely use spark plug specific anti seize on them.
Maybe a bonus of the new engine and TrickFlow 270's will be the angled spark plugs? May make it easier, I'd think so.

One of the reasons I don’t spring for the iridium or platinum plugs.
Just like with the old lady, regular in and out keeps things in proper condition.

 

[biomedtechguy]

From a functional standpoint, there’s no issues with Autolite spark plugs. Assuming you know the correct heat range, thread/tip configuration needed, it’ll light the mixture just fine. From a tuning standpoint, they’re worthless. I find them to be the most difficult plug to read out of all the major brands. NGK seem to be the preferred plug to tune with by everyone with a decent amount of tuning experience. The cadmium coating on the threads and tip make it easy to read the spark line on the tip and the heat line in the threads. We cut the threads off to view the A/F markings on the base of the porcelain. Just my .02 on spark plugs.

I am definitely going to use the best NGK (unless I get a really strong argument, presentation, or unexpected sponsorship from another high quality spark plug manufacturer...LOL...)
for my 572 when I get it dialed in, but probably a cheap set of "something" when I first get it from the builder, as I'd expect there to be a good deal of tuning required, and I want a fresh set of "great eight" plugs in it once it's tuned close enough to ideal so as to not trash a set of $8-$12/ea plugs.

 

[threewood]

I love the NGK plugs. In my GTX with Stealth heads I'm running ZFR6F-11.

 

[RJRENTON]

From a functional standpoint, there’s no issues with Autolite spark plugs. Assuming you know the correct heat range, thread/tip configuration needed, it’ll light the mixture just fine. From a tuning standpoint, they’re worthless. I find them to be the most difficult plug to read out of all the major brands. NGK seem to be the preferred plug to tune with by everyone with a decent amount of tuning experience. The cadmium coating on the threads and tip make it easy to read the spark line on the tip and the heat line in the threads. We cut the threads off to view the A/F markings on the base of the porcelain. Just my .02 on spark plugs.

The old argument of which spark plugs are best is alive and well. Why are anything but NGK spark plugs worthless...from a tuning standpoint? ....Just because?....... Champion spark plugs slso have a cadmium coating on the threads and tip.....wouldn't the same "reading ease" apply? Who determines the preference of tuners? How many tuners were asked to provide an opinion: 3, 12, 200, 500? Did they receive their test samples free, at cost or did pay retail price. The heat range signature on the exposed porcelain is a function of the length, material of composition (all ceramic is not the same), it's density, center electrode material (copper alloy, platinum or iridium, etc) and configuration (the NGK V groove), the total scavenging area around the crnter insulator, position of the plug in relation to the intake valve (charge cooling) exhaust valve shrouding, uniform fuel mixture distribution, uniform coolant distribution in the head, and uniform installation torque setting to achieve equal cooling of the plug. All these factors influence spark plug presentation. Many factors are involved.......not just one or several person's opinions with out full disclosure of the criteria used.....but that is just my opinion of course.....
BOB RENTON

 

[biomedtechguy]

By the way, I got caught up in "domestic duties" today, so tomorrow is a must to work on this before I run out of weekend.

 

[Hemirunner]

The old argument of which spark plugs are best is alive and well. Why are anything but NGK spark plugs worthless...from a tuning standpoint? ....Just because?....... Champion spark plugs slso have a cadmium coating on the threads and tip.....wouldn't the same "reading ease" apply? Who determines the preference of tuners? How many tuners were asked to provide an opinion: 3, 12, 200, 500? Did they receive their test samples free, at cost or did pay retail price. The heat range signature on the exposed porcelain is a function of the length, material of composition (all ceramic is not the same), it's density, center electrode material (copper alloy, platinum or iridium, etc) and configuration (the NGK V groove), the total scavenging area around the crnter insulator, position of the plug in relation to the intake valve (charge cooling) exhaust valve shrouding, uniform fuel mixture distribution, uniform coolant distribution in the head, and uniform installation torque setting to achieve equal cooling of the plug. All these factors influence spark plug presentation. Many factors are involved.......not just one or several person's opinions with out full disclosure of the criteria used.....but that is just my opinion of course.....
BOB RENTON

You’re twisting my words. I never said anything but an NGK was worthless and I even acknowledged that from a functional standpoint, they’re fine. I said from a tuning standpoint the Autolite is worthless and I base that statement on my experience.The dark black coating makes reading the spark line and seeing carbon buildup on the plug extremely difficult and at the track at night almost impossible. In all my years of dyno tuning and track experience, I find most people run use the NGK for those reasons and more. Yes, the cadmium on the Champions are nearly the same but their availability and somewhat unorthodox heat range methodology make these a second choice. That’s my experience over 30 years of doing this and what I relayed in the previous post.

 

[padam]

By the way, I got caught up in "domestic duties" today, so tomorrow is a must to work on this before I run out of weekend.

If "domestic duties" means what I think, congratulations.

 

[RemCharger]

If "domestic duties" means what I think, congratulations.

Yep if you don't do your domestic duties...
Somebody might do them for you??

 

[biomedtechguy]

If "domestic duties" means what I think, congratulations.

That's funny, because I thought some readers may take "domestic duties" as what I and others have called "servicing"..
Unfortunately, no, I was not "servicing". I was doing "domestic duties" aka "housework"...Vacuuming, dishes, etc.
I was getting pretty bummed out about a particular 2 to 3 times a day requirement: picking up DOG $hit. Despite my request, suggestions with reasons why it was a bad idea, then demands to abandon the idea, my wife bought 2 chocolate Lab puppies about a year ago, and that brought us to FIVE Lab/Lab mix dogs between 50 and 100 pounds..PLUS our 40 pound pig.
That's a LOT of dog $hit...
So in the interest of keeping the house cleaner, someone has to make an early morning pass through the back yard to prevent the fairly rowdy 1 year old Labs that play, wrestle, and run through that back yard not watching where they're running, not paying attention to what their PAWS may be running through. The pass through the yard to "pick up" was really wearing me down, so I've tried to take a humorous perspective with it.
This comes to mind:

After going to the grocery together today, something we really needed to do, I'll finally be getting to the SPARK PLUG job in a few minutes.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Yep if you don't do your domestic duties...
Somebody might do them for you??

No, that wouldn't happen. I've seen and had some great "experiences" in my life, but I don't think any would have been worth getting killed for.

 

[Mopar Hunter]

If "domestic duties" means what I think, congratulations.

Honey dew list. I’m not even married yet, and I knew that.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Well I'm an open book, and I don't put up a facade. It's my nature even if it is detrimental from time to time...
I should have done the spark plug work yesterday. Rather than stew on that mistake, I'll try to learn from it. On to today, I only had that one job: finish spark plugs, beginning with the #3 I'm having trouble with. I have to do the hardest thing first because it's better for my mental health, but mainly because of my pain issues, mostly lower back, but other significant areas that can be really bad on their own.
Once the lower back pain gets bad enough, and the nerves make it feel like my left quadriceps are on fire and my guts are being doused with acid while being pulled out with treble hooks, that can make me a little shaky and it's a little distracting.
None of that matters today...
The "trip to the grocery" together that I'll say had to be done took longer than if I went alone.
My wife works 12 hour shifts and I'm the chef, and the pork loin I cooked a week ago gets repetitive to eat, so I got a couple of things today to cook before she leaves, and I have a JAMMED schedule starting early tomorrow.
Skin on Salmon filet, I seasoned with cilantro lime seasoning, prepped for the infrared grill, and halved Brussels sprouts with an apple bacon reduction and some 5 Italian cheese shredded on top, fresh ground black pepper and a splash of Italian salad dressing in the oven.

She leaves in 30 minutes.
Thanks for the interest, help, and replies.
I'll post once I make the time to do the work.

 

[RJRENTON]

Well I'm an open book, and I don't put up a facade. It's my nature even if it is detrimental from time to time...
I should have done the spark plug work yesterday. Rather than stew on that mistake, I'll try to learn from it. On to today, I only had that one job: finish spark plugs, beginning with the #3 I'm having trouble with. I have to do the hardest thing first because it's better for my mental health, but mainly because of my pain issues, mostly lower back, but other significant areas that can be really bad on their own.
Once the lower back pain gets bad enough, and the nerves make it feel like my left quadriceps are on fire and my guts are being doused with acid while being pulled out with treble hooks, that can make me a little shaky and it's a little distracting.
None of that matters today...
The "trip to the grocery" together that I'll say had to be done took longer than if I went alone.
My wife works 12 hour shifts and I'm the chef, and the pork loin I cooked a week ago gets repetitive to eat, so I got a couple of things today to cook before she leaves, and I have a JAMMED schedule starting early tomorrow.
Skin on Salmon filet, I seasoned with cilantro lime seasoning, prepped for the infrared grill, and halved Brussels sprouts with an apple bacon reduction and some 5 Italian cheese shredded on top, fresh ground black pepper and a splash of Italian salad dressing in the oven.
View attachment 1372783
View attachment 1372796
She leaves in 30 minutes.
Thanks for the interest, help, and replies.
I'll post once I make the time to do the work.

The halved Brussels sprouts looks VERY INTERESTING. I'd like to try the recipe...please include. I make something similar...halved frozen sprouts (thawed), blotted dry lightly drizzled with garlic infused Olive oil, lightly dusted with fresh grated Parmesan cheese or a 3 cheese blend, and another light drizzle of Olive oil and then sprinkled lightly with Panko bread crumbs to absorb the oil, then broil until light golden brown and bubbly and fragrant, serve immediately.
The grilled salmon is also great looking.....receipt proportions please.....
BOB RENTON

 

[khryslerkid]

From spark plugs to gourmet cooking, who would have thunk it?

I'm going to get a snack now.