Supercharging....

[HYRDGOON]

From what I'm getting is you want a car that "feels fast" with good low rpm manners. If this was all I had to go off of to build you a engine. I would build you a 500" stroker with the most torque I could build into it. That way you have instant acceleration no matter where you were in the rpm range. If you had a combo that made 550-650 ft lbs of torque way down low in it "under 3500" you'd think you had a rocket. Now granted I've not had mine on the street but that is kinda how I built mine, flat torque curve it's only 590 hp but I'd dare say it'd smoke 95% of anything it'll meet on the street.
Here's my dyno sheet for the little 440+6
View attachment 542327

I have a crate 522 stroker with 530hp/660 torque. It's funny how quick something can feel not fast enough. Mine is a stick car and don't even need to downshift in 4th to make a clean pass.

Sometimes you just want more

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Nope still not understanding... at all. We'll try explaining this differently. As the car is with it's mild camshaft it is 100% happy cruising in overdrive at 1,800-2,000 rpm (1,800-5,800 rpm advertised range on my cam), so to make more power naturally aspirated a step up in cam is needed meaning let's say 3,500 rpm... now the car is worthless beyond 4th gear. This is the only reference to low rpms that I'm talking about.

Now to the supercharger, centrifugal does EXACTLY what I want. Hell I can go milder on the camshaft making even happier on the freeway and make way more power in the midrange and upper rpms which is what I want. I still don't know where everybody is getting that I want low rpm power? When I'm playing it's to the floor and shifted at 6,000 rpm. Hope this clears it up.

Yes that clears it up. Have you ever owned or built a forced induction car? Centrifugal is engine driven. It needs relatively high engine speeds to build boost. Yes, it’s fantastic on EFI builds with port-style fuel injection and an ECU that can quickly manage/alter timing/fuel on a street car. Camshaft selection for a centrifugal is very close to what a naturally aspirated engine would like, what you’re describing is a camshaft applicable to a turbo build which would have relatively low duration and a wide LSA, creating low amounts of overlap (minimal reversion). Go with what you believe is right, I love prochargers, but what you’ve described is not the optimal scenario to run one in; but it will make great power. You would be better off with a roots blower IMHO as there is a very low learning curve with draw-through power adders in comparison to centrifugal and turbo setups.

This is one of those situations that you have relatively no idea about until you get into it. I’ve had at this point, multiple supercharged/turbo cars. I went back N/A for my low-deck, that tells you something, or maybe I’m the only guy who drove them on the street. It’s very complex if you want it done right. I’m hoping for the best on your build, you’ll enjoy it. Just tune it very conservative off the start until you get more comfortable (understanding) with it under boost. With a carburetor it’s all you. Be ready to change high and low speed air bleeds, jets, cams, squirters, and everything else to get it dialed in. Same with a N/A build, but far more critical with boost.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Great article, some of the information is outdated but you can see the power potential.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-0604-440-mopar-engine-build/amp/

 

[747mopar]

Great article, some of the information is outdated but you can see the power potential.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-0604-440-mopar-engine-build/amp/

Impressive.

 

[747mopar]

I am interested in learning more about roots style blowers mainly the single carb setups. Doesn't seam to be much out there on big block Mopars? This would obviously be a good fit (physically) for my car seeings how it already has a huge hole in the hood but what's the pros and cons? How are they at low speeds since I'm assuming they're creating boost at all times. Does fuel economy suffer at freeway speeds? I know, I know... talking about bolting a blower on and economy at the same doesn't make sense haha. Just another thing to weigh in seeing how the centrifugal supercharger seams to be very effecient other than the added parasitic loss.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

If you just want absolute WOT power, the centrifugal (Procharger which is imho the best) is perfect. Other than it follows a similar power curve like a N/A engine, which is great for most as it doesn’t require as much suspension and tire to hook (also easier on parts). Blower, roots or screw, awesome power under the curve. All forced induction cars will get terrible mileage, just the nature of the beast, they are pulling additional air and fuel at all times (modern EFI not a considerable difference). Bolt on the blower, 6-10psi. Keep static low as you’ll want a milder, low duration camshaft with minimal reversion down low (which won’t lower the dynamic nearly as much). Purchase some off-the-shelf blower carb(s). Aeromotive BRFPR. A1000 pump. -8 forward/-10 return line. Lock timing. Run a 6al with a btm or 6al-2 with additional MAP sensor. And go. I really only care about WOT power so I would go with the procharger, but the roots would be the ‘funnest’ setup on a street car for sure and make brutal power everywhere.


Ask this same question on Moparts. State exactly what you’re looking for, see what most recommend. I drive on the street so my opinion may be different than someone who drives one professionally every weekend. Everyone starts somewhere!

 

[Dennis H]

Off topic, but the Coronet is about 500 at the crank and feels good on the street. In the basement where I like it. To get the new Challenger to go from about 380 to 505 would cost about $10 Grand. Researched a bunch for the 5.7 including Procharger. Then there's the wheel hop etc, skip shift and other piss off modern stuff to address. Plus an already whacky drive by wire throttle.

 

[747mopar]

If you just want absolute WOT power, the centrifugal (Procharger which is imho the best) is perfect. Other than it follows a similar power curve like a N/A engine, which is great for most as it doesn’t require as much suspension and tire to hook (also easier on parts). Blower, roots or screw, awesome power under the curve. All forced induction cars will get terrible mileage, just the nature of the beast, they are pulling additional air and fuel at all times (modern EFI not a considerable difference). Bolt on the blower, 6-10psi. Keep static low as you’ll want a milder, low duration camshaft with minimal reversion down low (which won’t lower the dynamic nearly as much). Purchase some off-the-shelf blower carb(s). Aeromotive BRFPR. A1000 pump. -8 forward/-10 return line. Lock timing. Run a 6al with a btm or 6al-2 with additional MAP sensor. And go. I really only care about WOT power so I would go with the procharger, but the roots would be the ‘funnest’ setup on a street car for sure and make brutal power everywhere.


Ask this same question on Moparts. State exactly what you’re looking for, see what most recommend. I drive on the street so my opinion may be different than someone who drives one professionally every weekend. Everyone starts somewhere!

All of this looking into it has showed me I better hold off and just start gathering parts over time until I can really tear into it. The fuel delivery was something I was planning on doing anyways (going electric) so I'll get a pump big enough to support the centrifugal. Tubbing, narrowing the rear, bigger tires and a torque arm setup was also on the block as well so I may as well get started on that too.

Next thing is whether or not to just buy a kit, seams like you get more bang for the buck that way?

 

[747mopar]

Off topic, but the Coronet is about 500 at the crank and feels good on the street. In the basement where I like it. To get the new Challenger to go from about 380 to 505 would cost about $10 Grand. Researched a bunch for the 5.7 including Procharger. Then there's the wheel hop etc, skip shift and other piss off modern stuff to address. Plus an already whacky drive by wire throttle.

I've seen kits for $6,000 and under, dollar per horsepower this isn't bad really.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I read Corky Bells ‘maximum boost’ along with researching on theturboforums for six months before I purchased a single component. Worked well for me, even with the $3,200 Paxton kit, most are likely going to have $5,000-$6,000 into the endeavor when completed and tuned. It isn’t inexpensive by any means. It seems that way (at least for turbo cars) as most are installing these kits on newer, factory EFI applications (LSx). Very simplistic in comparison to make big power. Everything is nearly off the shelf (LS6/LS9 roller camshafts, LS9 cylinder head gaskets, for example) and they have competent tuners around every corner. I would bite the bullet and save for a modern, factory supercharged swap; 6.2 Hellcat. Save $10,000 and sell the cars current drivetrain. 800hp reliably and safe from now on, with no unexpected maintenance other than changing the fluids. Makes a lot more sense. Easily 9-second capable getting 20mpg. Or just be happy with what you have and install some trickflow 240’s with a small roller-cam and make 650 +/- hp.

 

[PurpleBeeper]

That has crossed my mind many times but hate the idea of messing with refilling bottles or wanting to use it on a whim only to have to open the valve, flip a switch etc. If I do something I want it a stomp of the pedal away at all times.

They do sell electric remote bottle openers... it would take 2-3 seconds, so maybe that's too long a wait. For an extra $10,000 you can build a blower motor.

 

[747mopar]

I read Corky Bells ‘maximum boost’ along with researching on theturboforums for six months before I purchased a single component. Worked well for me, even with the $3,200 Paxton kit, most are likely going to have $5,000-$6,000 into the endeavor when completed and tuned. It isn’t inexpensive by any means. It seems that way (at least for turbo cars) as most are installing these kits on newer, factory EFI applications (LSx). Very simplistic in comparison to make big power. Everything is nearly off the shelf (LS6/LS9 roller camshafts, LS9 cylinder head gaskets, for example) and they have competent tuners around every corner. I would bite the bullet and save for a modern, factory supercharged swap; 6.2 Hellcat. Save $10,000 and sell the cars current drivetrain. 800hp reliably and safe from now on, with no unexpected maintenance other than changing the fluids. Makes a lot more sense. Easily 9-second capable getting 20mpg. Or just be happy with what you have and install some trickflow 240’s with a small roller-cam and make 650 +/- hp.

You know that's probably the best advice I've gotten lol. Spend $6,000 on just boosting my BB or spend $10,000 on a Hellcat motor and tranny! $4,000 extra but you get a whole entire motor and tranny.

 

[HYRDGOON]

The Hellcat crates are over 20k

 

[747mopar]

The Hellcat crates are over 20k

Not this one.

 

[Average Joe]

So my priorities somehow got mixed up... added A/C, serpentine setup, stereo....this is all great and adds to the reliability, comfort and enjoyment but doesn't do a thing for going fast!! I've been looking to add some ponies to the Charger for awhile but do to my lower cruising rpms the normal route of obtaining more HP isn't an option so Supercharging is on the table.

The purpose of this thread is to get everything that will be needed on the table so I can get a feel for the cost before I dive in. I'm only a few days into researching this so here's where I'm at.

Goon being the instigator that he is offered me a deal on a D1 which more than meets my goal..... and sparked a real interest (intentional I'm sure) so that would be covered.

I have a super nice Quickfuel Q series carb that will cost $500 to have it reworked by CSU... Please all you EFI guys resist the urge to sway me towards EFI... I like nut and bolts not computers lol.

Brackets will be custom made to run it off of the existing serpentine kit. This will likely require me to machine all new 8 rib pulleys as well since mines only 7.

So the rest of the list??

Boost reference regulator.

Aermotive electric fuel pump.

A/F ratio gauge.

Water injection kit?

Carb hat.

Blow off valve.

I'm getting mixed input on ignition, one says with water injection I'll be fine the other says I need a fancy ignition where I'll use a laptop to view and modify the curve $450?

So what am I missing other than plumbing?

Goal is to go from 500HP to 700HP and do it reliably meaning out with the Hyp pistons for forged and better rods.

You can do this on a budget. I see people doing it with 1000.00 dollar eBay turbo setups on 5.3 truck engines all the time.
A centrifugal supercharger is one of the simplest ways to add boost. Bolt on the supercharger,plum the fuel system,put a blow through
carb on and your ready to make more power.I know there is a little more than that involved but this can be done on a budget.
Your list is pretty much correct. You should do a timing retard,you don't have to get a computer controlled box. MSD make one that
runs off manifold pressure like the regulator. I believe it sells for 89.00.
The Hellcat motor and trans looks awesome and thats a smoking deal. Chryslers computers are not like GM ECU's.
They are a pain the butt and expensive to do a stand alone system.Butt for that price it might be worth it.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

You can do this on a budget. I see people doing it with 1000.00 dollar eBay turbo setups on 5.3 truck engines all the time.
A centrifugal supercharger is one of the simplest ways to add boost. Bolt on the supercharger,plum the fuel system,put a blow through
carb on and your ready to make more power.I know there is a little more than that involved but this can be done on a budget.
Your list is pretty much correct. You should do a timing retard,you don't have to get a computer controlled box. MSD make one that
runs off manifold pressure like the regulator. I believe it sells for 89.00.
The Hellcat motor and trans looks awesome and thats a smoking deal. Chryslers computers are not like GM ECU's.
They are a pain the butt and expensive to do a stand alone system.Butt for that price it might be worth it.

Yes they do. But he isn't building a 5.3 or 6.0 LS iron-block motor. GT45 w/ 1.10ar T4 eBay turbo ($300) will easily make 500rwhp on a bone stock 5.3 LS motor. BW S475 w/ 1.32 AR ($600 turbo) will easily make 600-700 rwhp on a 400+ cube LSx engine.

The problem is, he doesn't have an LSx engine. None of the 'easy' builds apply. He is building a Chrysler engine. Go to theturboforums and spend an entire week reading on the Mopar specific section, there are maybe, five or ten who have had great success (my friend Randy who rebuilt his 400 low-deck three times after he broke a crank, and scattered two pistons) but eventually has it dialed in and ran in the 10/9 second realm in street trim. Very few guys making big-power because it cost mega-bucks to get a block and rotating assembly that can handle it, everyone goes to LSx based power for a reason (even Ford guys when they have the Coyote). The standard GEN III Hemi is terrible when it comes to managing boost in stock form. The LS iron-block (truck engine) swaps are so popular, as you can run them 'as-is' or widen the ring gap, and make unfathomable power with a stock bottom end. They take the end user trying to build a great foundation out of the equation (LSx guys WR is in the low 7's - 1/4 on a stock bottom end). Tuners are a dime-a-dozen. Every combination has been built one hundred times over, and there is no guesswork. You can't even compare his build to anything remotely similar to an LSx. I've watched threads for years, guys are still trying to get the mega-buck applications sorted out when it comes to Chrysler engines. You may see some nice cars in the magazines, but the owners don't drive them. Nothing is simple for a street driven car, there are many trade-offs, such as locked timing and carb specific tuning. For example, I just idled in traffic for 45-minutes straight yesterday, burned around 3-gallons of fuel to run less than two-miles. You know what, my temperature was at a solid 185* with a 270* @ .050 solid-lifter cam idling at 1,400 rpm. My previous carbed blow-through turbo setup would not do that, as they require locked timing (no curve) and create massive IATs; even at idle.

Going with a 6.2 crate engine, especially for only $15,000 (which won't be much out of pocket if selling his current running drive train) is a bargain. There are guys who spend $6,000-$8,000 supercharging factory 392's that are a time bomb with anything above 7-8psi. (Just read an owner recently selling his kit after destroying a brand-new 392 Hemi at 650rwhp). The Hellcat's 6.2 is built specifically for forced induction and they have been beat to death with minimal parts breakage. You get nothing proven doing it yourself, and will most likely destroy a Chrysler based engine before getting the combination dialed in. I've seen so many guys gravitating toward the Hellcat crate engine recently it's not even funny, we finally have a competitive advantage over GM/Ford. Which is nice for a change.

 

[747mopar]

You can do this on a budget. I see people doing it with 1000.00 dollar eBay turbo setups on 5.3 truck engines all the time.
A centrifugal supercharger is one of the simplest ways to add boost. Bolt on the supercharger,plum the fuel system,put a blow through
carb on and your ready to make more power.I know there is a little more than that involved but this can be done on a budget.
Your list is pretty much correct. You should do a timing retard,you don't have to get a computer controlled box. MSD make one that
runs off manifold pressure like the regulator. I believe it sells for 89.00.
The Hellcat motor and trans looks awesome and thats a smoking deal. Chryslers computers are not like GM ECU's.
They are a pain the butt and expensive to do a stand alone system.Butt for that price it might be worth it.

Honestly I think the first step needs to be putting it on a dyno to see where I'm at. If I'm closer to 450hp then now we're talking about adding a lot less boost. I'm taking a step back to think things over but a new motor isn't in the cards anytime soon as much as I'd like it to be.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Honestly I think the first step needs to be putting it on a dyno to see where I'm at. If I'm closer to 450hp then now we'r talking about adding a lot less boost. I'm taking a step back to think things over, a new motor isn't in the cards anytime soon so as much as I'd like it it's not happening.

What is your current build 747?

 

[747mopar]

What is your current build 747?

I gave most of the info earlier but I'll try to be more specific.

400 bored. 060" over, forged 1971 440 crank and rods, KB Hyp pistons, decked to zero deck height for 10:1 compression.

Comp cam 23-230-4 (advertised duration is 274 ex, 268 intake, lift is 488 int and 501 exh, mechanical flat tapped).

Heads are ported 452s with the larger Ferra valves, flow testing showed they'd support 550+ lift.

Intake is an Eddy performer rpm with a Q series Quickfuel 750 DP.

The engine was built with low rpm cruising in mind and does wonderful, the obstacle is increasing output without screwing that up.

 

[Average Joe]

Honestly I think the first step needs to be putting it on a dyno to see where I'm at. If I'm closer to 450hp then now we're talking about adding a lot less boost. I'm taking a step back to think things over but a new motor isn't in the cards anytime soon as much as I'd like it to be.

Sorry 747
I’ve seen your work and didn’t realize I would upset people for encouraging you. I’ll keep my opinions to myself.
Thanks joe.