Torque Flight Skips 2nd

1962 - 1965 Mopars

  1. wagonwedge330

    wagonwedge330 Well-Known Member

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    Awwh this makes sense now. I didn’t realize this.... the Torque Flight built was a low mile from a BB ‘65 Coronet parts car a gentleman was building an altered wb ‘’60’s clone, anyway this would explain it. Thanks very much!
     
  2. wagonwedge330

    wagonwedge330 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks everyone for your time, offering your input, and help, I really appreciate it..!
     
  3. dvw

    dvw Well-Known Member

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    Missed the part about it being a push Button. Stupid on my part. After reading this statement (In the pre-'66, line pressure for the governor is supplied by the rear pump, this might explain why it only happens after sitting a while.) Maybe it has a newer style 1 hole filter restricting the feed flowing to the rear pump?
    Doug
     
  4. wagonwedge330

    wagonwedge330 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Doug...I really appreciate your input.....
     
  5. Dipstick

    Dipstick Well-Known Member

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    I admit, I'm just guessing but, if throttle pressure remains constant, it might take a governor pressure of 24 psi to initiate a 1-2 upshift at 12 mph. If governor ring leakage prevents proper governor pressure buildup, no 1-2 shift will occur but if the road speed increases enough (as it will with a constant throttle setting) to build 30 psi of governor pressure, the 1-2 and 2-3 shift might occur simultaneously. Again, just studying the fluid flow diagrams in the FSM and theorizing. Why it only happens once a day is still a mystery but the one-hole filter idea is a possibility.
     
  6. 383man

    383man Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes I read to fast. Thanks for pointing that out to me. Sorry about that . Ron
     
  7. MoparMur

    MoparMur Well-Known Member

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    Well i know this post is over 3 months old, but here's my take on this after a bottle of wine...very, very strange this happens only one time on the first attempt to the 1-2 shift. Personally I think a little more info and diagnosis are in order here. First thing on the list is 3-speed aluminum Torqueflites only pump fluid throughout the complete trans. in any gear selection EXCEPT PARK. This is why a Torqueflite fluid level needs to be checked idling, fully warmed up, in NEUTRAL. If there is a problem with torque converter fluid drain-back after sitting at rest for an extended amount of time, or the 2nd gear band apply servo draining back after sitting for some time, starting the vehicle in PARK (as we all would do) and shifting to Drive immediately without a few seconds of warm-up OUT OF PARK could result in not enough time for all the cavities, servos, converter, etc. to fill and expel air to allow proper operation when the second gear shift is commanded. I don't think the converter is the issue because your car likely wouldn't move till it fills. First thing I'd do is check the fluid level as noted above, and then on the next cold start fire the car up, shift to neutral, idle for a half-minute, and drive away and see if the condition changes. My best friend, a Tech School instructor, always told me if the transmission is CAPABLE of shifting the problem is in the brains of the thing (valve body), or a fluid supply problem. My best guess is your second gear servo is leaking down and taking time to refill the servo cavity. Once that's done the fluid supply overwhelms the leak (whatever that may be) and it shifts great for the remainder of your cruise. I'd be looking for a reason for the 2nd gear servo to be empty of fluid (perhaps a porosity in the case, or a crack). In any event, I'm sure you've got this issue solved by now, but I'd sure like to know what you found to be the problem.
     
  8. 493 Mike

    493 Mike FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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    The only problem with this diagnoses is the servo piston return spring forces the fluid out of the servo bore in every selector position except 2nd, so it is always empty because the piston should empty the bore. Now sometimes servo pistons have been known to cock and stick in the bore.
    Mike
     
  9. wagonwedge330

    wagonwedge330 Well-Known Member

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    I really appreciate your time, in fact, I have not solved the problem. I drove the car all day today round town doing all my run around stuff, lots of starts / stops, sitting, I also drove 15 miles at 60-70 mph to the next town to fill up with 92 octane that contains NO ethanol! The car runs and shifts flawlessly, except that first shift after the car had sat overnight (in this case two days due to the weather), but oddly, that doesn’t seem to matter...the car could sit two months, but never has ), two weeks, two days, or simply over night, and there’s no difference in anything, the performance is exactly the same. Example....car sits overnight, starts up, it takes a few minutes to maneuver the car out the garage, slowly down the drive where I will push the button neutral, flip the park lever, walk down to the garage close the door, walk back to the car, back into the street, push button to drive, the cars transmission will seem it’s not gonna change but it will, but into 3rd! There’s a stop sign, then about 200 feet another stop sign where you must turn left or right into a main road. Doesn’t matter which way I go or what I do, the transmission will change perfectly from this point on with absolutely not another issue. I will back up a little, (I just wanted first to explain as much as I could, everything I do when I drive the Polara, from the time of first start up after the car has sat overnight, to when I drive the car, which is very often), anyway, backing up a little.....
    I have checked the fluid, and recheck the fluid before and after, I’ve stop during trips to check the fluid, and I always check the fluid upon return. Also, since the car is a 1963 Polara, I’ve looked up specs and info on Torque Flights and rear differential from a 1965 Coronet, which is what these components are from! Both were completely rebuilt right around 7 years ago, and including the engine, the complete drivetrain has only 7,600 - 7,800 miles on them, which includes the 400 big block, (from a 1973 Motor Home), with a mild cam, the Torqt Flight and the differential which is a 2:90 ratio. I’ve had so many of the MoParians round here, just about every comment I get is “man, I wish my shit ran this good and skipped 2nd gear lol.....my neighbor who’s a raced MoPars, built them, drove them / performed quality restoration in them 30 yrs he tells me if I’m not careful, I’m going to unleash more shit than I want to spend on..... my thoughts are, I drive my cars often....on long trips sometimes, and I’ve seen these little things get folks stranded many times so I hope to solve the problem If it’s something that might turn into a big one.......
     
  10. Ron H

    Ron H FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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    No leaks with the trans? Does the fluid look good? Does your mopar neighbor have experience with these TF's beyond saying you may unleash problems? Or maybe he knows someone who knows old TF's? Guys replying here know more than I do, but in '65 (you say this is a '65 trans?) the buttons were dropped but the cable shift, as I can recollect, was still used until design changes '66; but with a different VB? Not sure. I know for swapping a '65 into an earlier B there were a few things diff that had to be done to accommodate this. Grabbing at some straws. Simple checks just in case, would be to make sure the kick down rod is adjusted/working properly (or fits properly considering diff engine) and check the shift cable adjustment at the VB - I do doubt these are gremlins...but just something simple I'd check out in the hunt. Another might be checking the fluid filter cleaning or replacing it (if the fluid looks/smells skanky). Crappy job as I've done without having a nice car lift but installed a shift kit in it. Installed a drain plug in the pan when I did this too. If this hassle continues, a knowledgeable shop should do some checks on it including pressure checks. With my car, if I don't come to a full stop, it will not drop back down to 1st gear but when I start it cold, I have immediate shifting to D or R.
     
  11. Ernie ingling

    Ernie ingling Well-Known Member

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    Can you manually shift through gears? If yes suspect rear pump which provides governer pressure. Need to have some trans shop to ckeck line and gov. pressures.
     
  12. MoparMur

    MoparMur Well-Known Member

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    Good point on that servo spring Mike. Am I right in remembering there is an external pressure port on the case at the front band servo to check apply pressure? One would think the pressure would read close to zero if second gear is "skipped" for whatever reason. That being said, if there's a mechanical reason the servo doesn't apply the band (i.e. servo piston cocked and jammed) I suppose the pressure could rise normally without the band being applied. Odd problem indeed. I'd love to know the answer to this once it's discovered. The other thing I'd do is remove the governor, disassemble and sand the valves, and reassemble it and try that. Governors cause a lot of goofy problems when they stick. Then put the gauge on the governor port and watch it for proper pressure build-up.
     
  13. 493 Mike

    493 Mike FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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    Yes, there is a test port on the servo housing. 1/8" pipe thread if I recall.
    Mike
     
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    • dvw

      dvw Well-Known Member

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      As mentioned before all the trouble of connecting a gauge. What happens if the first shift of the day is from manual low to 2nd using the buttons themselves? If tha works it eliminates an issue with the servo. As I remember there is also a port to test rear pump pressure.
      Doug
       
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      • 493 Mike

        493 Mike FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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        And remember the rear pump is powered by the output shaft so if pressure testing jack up the rear tires!
        Mike
         
      • wagonwedge330

        wagonwedge330 Well-Known Member

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        I really appreciate the feedback, I’m slowly going through each reply, I am double checking everything again. Something very interesting about the kick down rod adjustment, that had been an issue, so I’m diving into that tomorrow! Thanks everyone, and Happy Holidays!
         
      • wagonwedge330

        wagonwedge330 Well-Known Member

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        Yes sir, in a ‘67 R/T years and years ago, (I think my hair was still brown lol), I had a gov sticking issue, driving to Orlando....Now it was also this small little issue that I was scared to mess with, again, everyone was telling me to leave it alone, etc etc, you know how your car Bud gang can be....so that got in my head....well, she ended up at my Aunts in Tampa, luckily, my cousin was a MoPar guy, and was able to get the R/T to his guy on Torque flights. but this seems different. This one is a 1965 TF, and it shifts it just skips second that first time when she’s cold, just once! I appreciated your input and it could very well be a gov issue....thanks! I will keep everyone up to date as I go through by process of elimination.
        c
         
      • wagonwedge330

        wagonwedge330 Well-Known Member

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        I’ve read every response, and I appreciate all the help! Ron H posted something that I remembered, (I’m replacing the damned carb or about to), the detent is hardly connected, a stud and clip was broken...it’s impossible to see with the air cleaner in place, but I will keep everyone posted on this. I have literally been taking one post at a time and checking various ideas from everyone. I greatly appreciate you all!
         
      • lemondana

        lemondana Well-Known Member

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        In your other post about what carb to use, you stated you did not have the kickdown linkage hooked up properly. Fix that and see what you have. But it sounds like you have been driving the car a lot, you probably have destroyed the transmission already!
         
      • wagonwedge330

        wagonwedge330 Well-Known Member

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        Thanks for weighing in....the pan off the transmission looks like new, no burnt fluid or smell the fluid was changed, but wasn’t really needed, filter/fluid was very clean no burnt fluid or smell, this issue only occurs after the car sits overnight and only happens during the very first shift of the day, and no more! It’s baffling, but yes I’m already on the detent thing, since Ron R’s mention of earlier’65 TF, I’m not sure if it is an early ‘65 or not, but I have a carb on the way, hopefully it might address both issues.
         
        Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
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