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Tranny governor and Transgo tf-2

Nate S

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So I have a ‘64 rear pump, flanged, cable shifted 727 that’s in good shape but wants a shift kit and shift speed adjustment. It’s not too complex to take the current shift speeds (regular and full throttle) and governor weights (inner and outer in grams) and translate those into new shift speeds. Basically force = mass of weight * rpm^2 / radius before and after. This is for the full governor weight including spring for “off throttle” and mass of inner weight- spring force for “on throttle”.

So using this approach I can figure out how much to machine off the weights or add to the spring to move the shift from one place to another. Trouble here is I also want to put in a Transgo TF-2 kit. That kit itself will move the shift points. I don’t want to put it in just to get the new speeds then pull the tail off the tranny to adjust the governor. So punchline question is: with a regular 440 or other performance 727 what are the shift speeds (rpm) with the Transgo kit? If I know those roughly I can wing it with the governor. If I use what I have today and adjust the governor to match I think the kit will push the numbers too high. Any experiences or thoughts?
 
Too many factors, nobody will be able to tell you. You’ll be into it several times before you either give up or get it where you want it.

The valve body has adjustments, different governor weights and spring, throttle pressure linkage adjustments, etc.
 
Interesting wrinkle to add. The throttle rod (properly adjusted and a single rod in a ‘64). Travels a shorter distance, about 1-5/8” on the original carb than it does on the Holley 3310 (1-7/8 almost 2). Before I go too far I’ll add a new hole to the standard Holley/Mopar adapter bracket and fix that so the throttle rod is pushed back the appropriate amount.
 
T
Too many factors, nobody will be able to tell you. You’ll be into it several times before you either give up or get it where you want it.

The valve body has adjustments, different governor weights and spring, throttle pressure linkage adjustments, etc.

That’s pretty fair. There are lots of moving parts (literally). Even an anecdotal take might help though, like,”I put in the kit exactly to the directions and the shift speeds didn’t move”. In the big picture I’ll probably tweak the governor to do something like 5200 and a bit higher than it is for off throttle and adjust the valve body from there.
 
That math is all fine and dandy. I seriously doubt that it will predict the shift point accurately. Too many other variables. The formula for the shift is simple enough. Governor pressure exceeds throttle pressure by a set amount. The trick is what affects those design parameters.
From John Kunkel. The governor weight is comprised of three major parts, the outer weight, the inner weight and the spring. The outer weight has most effect on part throttle upshift speeds while the spring has most effect on the WOT upshift speeds. The inner weight affects both part and WOT shift speeds.
Doug
 
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I’ve done it by the math before and it worked fine. It’s how they designed it in the first place. Extra trick here is what the kit does first. Going from one speed to another is pretty straightforward.
 
So how do you know which weight to cut? Where do you source the correct spring? What about different factory shift timing from valve body, KD lever ratio, and high clutch spring changes as well as the different factory governors? And you can tailor the part throttle and the 1/2 to 2/3 shift rpms all with math? How close? Teach us.
Doug
 
So how do you know which weight to cut? Where do you source the correct spring? What about different factory shift timing from valve body, KD lever ratio, and high clutch spring changes as well as the different factory governors? And you can tailor the part throttle and the 1/2 to 2/3 shift rpms all with math? How close? Teach us.
Doug

The only way to do it is to change one thing at a time. So, many of the things you mentioned we can't control for, they need to stay the same as we make one change, the governor in this case. That was the nature of my initial question actually. Inside the governor we've got the outer weight, spring and inner weight. Lower speed shifts are driven by the weight of all three put together, higher speed shifts are driven by the inner weight and spring. As the governor spins the weights pull the governor valve open slowly, as it opens more, the pressure goes up. This pressure is on a larger area of the valves than the throttle pressure so eventually it always wins and gets the shift.

Let's say though, that when everything is adjusted nicely we get those early shifts at ~6 and 11 mph into 2nd and 3rd gears. That stinks so we want to move it up to say 12 and 22 without changing anything else. The governor is a spinning assembly and the centrifugal force of the spinning weight pulls against the hydraulic pressure of the governor. At some force the gov pressure is high enough to shift. So we want that same force at twice the speed. We can start with centripetal force of m*v²/r and the actual driveshaft speed and a whole bunch of other stuff but it all cancels out to be mass of the weight (all of it for this speed) * V². So a typical governor weight is 70g * 6² = 2520, and we want ?g*12²=2520 would mean that we'd need a 18g weight to move the shift that far. Well that's freaking impossible, you'll notice the factory never did it that way either. We need to alter other parts of the system like the 1-2 spring or 2-3 spring or throttle spring to get that kind of effect. So we do the most we can with the gov, which is to make the whole thing light. You'll see that with factory high perf govs, not much metal.

But now we go to the WOT area and we want to move 1-2 from 4800 to 5200rpm. The hydraulic pressures are much higher up here and the springs (on valves) have less of an effect and the gov has more. The big weight is out of the equation (bottomed out) but now the spring and inner weight are in it. Here, the actual speed matters because the spring isn't variable and we need a proper force number to work with. So in first, we've got 4800 rpm and a 2.45 gear so the output shaft is at 1959 rpm. **following numbers are representative, I don't have actuals in hand at the moment** If the centerline of the weight is 38mm from the center of the output shaft the weight is moving 3.9 m/s (.038*3.1416*1959/60). If it weighs (inner weight) 30g the force would be .03*3.9²/.038 = 12N. So that would be in some equilibrium with a spring and hydraulic pressure.

If we then jump to 5200 and churn through the same math we can find that we need only .0256g to get the same 12N, we can cut that off of the weight. Similarly we could pick a new spring that provides enough extra force to compensate for the extra speed at the installed length. I'd go to McMaster for that.

Same basic deal happens at 2nd gear but the forces are then up in the 34N range. There's another factor though. The governor pressure itself pushes against the spool valve and the pressure (both governor and line) is higher for the second shift. This is "return pressure" and equivalent to lightening the weight or making the spring heavier. This changes depending on where the shifts are. If you have a tranny that shifts 1-2 and 2-3 at 4800 rpm, a governor only adjustment will move the 2-3 farther than the 1-2 the farther you move it. So if you try to go for 6000 with 2-3 you'll bring the 1-2 up less. This will require a heavier spring in the 1-2 spool. Using a longer, lower rate spring for the same force in the governor helps minimize this but there's only so much room.

Anyway, that's the basics. Not too complicated and works pretty well for smaller adjustments. Go farther and there are more factors and more iterations to perfect it.
 
Basics make sense. And I understand you can figure the math. However the shift valve spring rates are an unknown to most of us. With no way to test it. So we can trim the governor with math. Guess at the springs. Then pull the valve body and guess at a shift valve spring(s). Many years ago I had pictures of various governor parts. I measured the pictures with a dial caliper. Then measured a stock governor. Did the math and figured out the actual diameters and hole sizes of the Hi Po governors. Then used a bench grinder and drill to roughly replicate the size. No spring changes as I had no info on spring rate. It was better than stock, not ideal. It would be nice if there was a chart of acurate weights and spring rates for a given shift rpm. Dont see that happening though. Even most of the major Torqueflite builders dont really have this info.
Doug
 
Basics make sense. And I understand you can figure the math. However the shift valve spring rates are an unknown to most of us. With no way to test it. So we can trim the governor with math. Guess at the springs. Then pull the valve body and guess at a shift valve spring(s). Many years ago I had pictures of various governor parts. I measured the pictures with a dial caliper. Then measured a stock governor. Did the math and figured out the actual diameters and hole sizes of the Hi Po governors. Then used a bench grinder and drill to roughly replicate the size. No spring changes as I had no info on spring rate. It was better than stock, not ideal. It would be nice if there was a chart of acurate weights and spring rates for a given shift rpm. Dont see that happening though. Even most of the major Torqueflite builders dont really have this info.
Doug

I totally agree that having a little lookup chart of known good governor configurations would be quite helpful. Found this which is of some interest. Sort of handles it as if it's one part. Spring might be tough to get, century spring would probably have it.
governor 2.jpg
 
Even the folks who sell the high speed governors admit that it's a crap shoot...not exact science/math.

For instance, an advertised 5500 rpm governor might upshift 1-2 at 5500 but the 2-3 might be 5200. In this case, they offer shift valve springs to correct the difference.
 
Even the folks who sell the high speed governors admit that it's a crap shoot...not exact science/math.

For instance, an advertised 5500 rpm governor might upshift 1-2 at 5500 but the 2-3 might be 5200. In this case, they offer shift valve springs to correct the difference.

No question that from across the country you can’t tell. If you have one in your car that does one thing you can generally make it do a pretty specific something else.
 
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