Who has NEVER had a cam or lifter go bad?

[Ceedawg]

If you’re referring to the flat spot on the outer lifter body, from what I can tell, it is just a minor flat spot below the oil band. This allows some oil to leak past and go down to the lobe. I can’t find an off the shelf Big Block lifter with that, I figure a machinist that does lifter refacing may also be able to do it.
If I were to switch to a different solid flat tappet, I could use my current lifters after resurfacing or my set of OEM Mopar solid lifters that came with the ‘528 cam I bought in 2014. I’d have a machinist put a flat groove in those. I’m only guessing but it seems that any measure of increased oiling to the lobes is a good thing.

No, the face looks flat, I couldn’t see any oscillation of lifter. I would think it would rock back and forth to make a curved crown. The lifter holder tied together to the grinder

 

[Kern Dog]

I don't understand any of what you wrote there.
I was focused on this:

That flat spot is machined into the area below the oil band/recesses in the lifter body. The EDM solid lifters have the hole in the foot of the lifter but the hydraulics can't have that or they would not build pressure. The workaround is to mill a small flat spot on the outer body. This won't affect the internal pressure of the lifter yet still increase oil supply to the cam lobes.

 

[Ceedawg]

I don't understand any of what you wrote there.
I was focused on this:

View attachment 1802254

That flat spot is machined into the area below the oil band/recesses in the lifter body. The EDM solid lifters have the hole in the foot of the lifter but the hydraulics can't have that or they would not build pressure. The workaround is to mill a small flat spot on the outer body. This won't affect the internal pressure of the lifter yet still increase oil supply to the cam lobes.

In the 3 vidios the company that was grinding the lifters.

 

[Geoff 2]

I would not use the lifters in post #102. The chamfer on the base is huge & with a cam that is designed to use the full lifter diam, the lifter could dig into the lobe. The machined flat. I have been doing that for 30 yrs using a Dremel with a cut off wheel, no need to pay 'extra'.

 

[Kern Dog]

I sure don't trust myself to "Dremel" a flat spot in a lifter!
The Southern guy that makes the videos for Powell had one video discussing the chamfer at the outer edge of the lifters and how some are beveled a LOT more than others. Interesting stuff...

 

[Geoff 2]

With the Dremel, you grind a slot, not a flat. Same thing is achieved: a small supply of positive oil to the lifter base.

 

[Kern Dog]

What about the edge of that groove? Do you smooth it out with some Emery cloth or something to chamfer the edges?

 

[moparx]

definitely.

 

[Black_Sheep]

Digging around the shop for some fittings, I came across this souvenir from a wiped cam lobe…

 

[Gunner1]

I would think those slots would work but maybe load the oil wrapped around the crank assembly even more. With a crank scraper it would be fine. All I did was chuck the pushrod cup end in a lathe and use a v shaped bit on its side and cut a .005 deep groove from the oil groove to the face of the lifter. That gave a small constant spray to add to the oil wedge. Both would work.

 

[Geoff 2]

I have been grinding an oiling groove down the side of the lifter body for over 30 yrs.

 

[ckessel]

I've been reading the tech book by Billy Godbold recently. Lots of interesting info in it plus quite a bit over my head. I'm close to being done with it but I came across one portion I'm tempted to call b/s on. He states that in the 80's, GM and Ford had many issues with cams/lifters going bad, even with the high ZDDP oils back then. This warranty issue was the reason why the manufactures went to roller's. The first dealer I worked at, 86, was a Chevy, Mercedes and Bounder RV dealer. I never saw any cam/lifter issues happening when I worked parts. Was there for about a year and a half. We did do quite a few 454's under warranty on the RV's. Enough to where there were usually 6+ short and long blocks on hand. The RV's, due to the owners, would kill quite a few from being overloaded. Some even wiped out the thrust mains in the blocks. But no cam/lifter issues. Prior to that I worked at a speed shop and did move a decent amount of cams/lifter's but just as upgrades generally. Around 92, I got back to another GM dealer, Buick/Pontiac/GMC plus Subaru and Isuzu. No cams/lifters. From there Mopar and GM dealers for another 12 years. No cams/lifter issues. I never worked at a Ford dealer, so I have no knowledge of said issues there. Maybe some of you fellow gents who wrenched at dealers in your past have knowledge of this issue. If it actually happened.

 

[ykf7b0]

I've never had a cam fail, but I did go retro hydraulic roller with my last 2 builds just because I didn't want to go through the tedious break in procedure associated with a flat tappet set-up.

 

[Ceedawg]

I've never had a cam fail, but I did go retro hydraulic roller with my last 2 builds just because I didn't want to go through the tedious break in procedure associated with a flat tappet set-up.

I've been reading the tech book by Billy Godbold recently. Lots of interesting info in it plus quite a bit over my head. I'm close to being done with it but I came across one portion I'm tempted to call b/s on. He states that in the 80's, GM and Ford had many issues with cams/lifters going bad, even with the high ZDDP oils back then. This warranty issue was the reason why the manufactures went to roller's. The first dealer I worked at, 86, was a Chevy, Mercedes and Bounder RV dealer. I never saw any cam/lifter issues happening when I worked parts. Was there for about a year and a half. We did do quite a few 454's under warranty on the RV's. Enough to where there were usually 6+ short and long blocks on hand. The RV's, due to the owners, would kill quite a few from being overloaded. Some even wiped out the thrust mains in the blocks. But no cam/lifter issues. Prior to that I worked at a speed shop and did move a decent amount of cams/lifter's but just as upgrades generally. Around 92, I got back to another GM dealer, Buick/Pontiac/GMC plus Subaru and Isuzu. No cams/lifters. From there Mopar and GM dealers for another 12 years. No cams/lifter issues. I never worked at a Ford dealer, so I have no knowledge of said issues there. Maybe some of you fellow gents who wrenched at dealers in your past have knowledge of this issue. If it actually happened.

View attachment 1976490

I was at Dodge in early 70s, not one cam was replaced, only one lifter because it ticked. This was in the whole shop! But, at that time if a car had 50,000 or more miles it went to wholesale or junk yard, any car with 100,000 was unheard of. In 70s and 80s with racing and hot street, never heard of any wiped cams, very few were ‘broke’ in. I’m pretty sure no factory ‘broke’ in cams, just made sure they ran before sticking it in a car.

 

[toolmanmike]

This is a serious question.
Bad news goes everywhere but good news often hides in the shadows. I know that there are many of you that have never had a cam go flat so let's hear from you!
Before I went all Mopar, I had a few Chevys. I never had a cam go bad with them despite Chevrolet having a recall in the late 70s for that very thing.
In all of the Mopars that I've owned, none of the stock engines had a cam/lifter issue either. It was only after I stepped it up a bit and went for increased performance.
In 2006, I used a Comp Cam 285HL in my 440/493. It ran great, sounded great but lost a lobe within about a hundred miles. I used the assembly lube, I used Valvoline oil and I did the break in but the engine ran hot within the first 15 minutes so I had to shut it down to cool off. When I went to restart it, I got no spark. I kept replacing stuff until it finally ran, at that point I finished the break in. Summit Racing warrantied the cam and sent another.
The second cam from Comp was the same grind. It lasted a few months before the same thing happened again. I took the 292/509 I originally had in the engine and slipped it back in with new lifters. It held up fine. I pulled it a few years later when I tried the Lunati solid in an effort to stop the detonation.
In 2022, I lost the MP 528 solid after having it in the car for 8 years. Sometime in 2021, I switched oil to a synthetic with a high detergent. I was told that the oil itself was probably to blame.
Back in 2010, I lost an MP 292/508 in the 360 I built for the FrankenDuster....

View attachment 1684006

By all accounts, I did everything right with that one. I still never figured out why it went bad.
I have other cars here with flat tappet cams but they show no signs of failing. The 360 in a Dart, the 440 in the Power Wagon, the 360 in a 72 Duster all are holding up fine.
I am not a trained mechanic but when I am trying to determine the cause of a problem, I look for a common theme.
The only cam failures I've seen have been in rebuilt engines aimed for higher performance. Higher performance often means non stock parts, stiffer valve springs and higher compression.
There has been all sorts of discussion over what causes these failures. Some blame the manufacturers for making crappy products. There have been tests to show that the hardness of the metal in the camshafts and lifters is no different but there have also been some that found too little taper on the bottoms of the lifters. Some blame the valvesprings for being too stiff, others blame the oil. There are engine builders now that refuse to install flat tappet cams because they don't want to risk a costly warranty return.
You may just default to the argument to switch to a roller cam and that is a solid argument, but.....
Why do so many flat tappet engines survive? I know of several guys that have not dealt with a cam failure. What are they doing right?
Are you one of them that has never personally lost a camshaft?

View attachment 1684007

Never had one go bad that I installed (it hasn't been that many though) Haven't had one go flat in a running engine either. I better go buy a lottery ticket. Luck is on my side.

 

[ykf7b0]

I was at Dodge in early 70s, not one cam was replaced, only one lifter because it ticked. This was in the whole shop! But, at that time if a car had 50,000 or more miles it went to wholesale or junk yard, any car with 100,000 was unheard of. In 70s and 80s with racing and hot street, never heard of any wiped cams, very few were ‘broke’ in. I’m pretty sure no factory ‘broke’ in cams, just made sure they ran before sticking it in a car.

From what I'm understanding, the lack of zinc in oils for the sake of catalytic converters, and questionable metallurgy are the two main factors cam and or lifter failure became prevalent.

 

[ckessel]

The ZDDP did get cut for the emissions equipment. However, the main reason for the emissions items getting polluted has not been addressed very well by the OE's. That issue is too much oil in the CCV/PCV systems. Thinner and some times more volatile oils, hydraulic controls like DOD/VTEC etc, turbo'd/supercharged engines. The CCV/PCV systems on many engines is not up to snuff on keeping oil out. Witness the prevalence of after market catch cans to control/catch the mist that would normally get into the combustion chamber. But thats a whole nother topic.
In the book he says the problem started back in the 80's which is what I call B/S on. My take is that it's a blame shift going on considering where he used to work. My intuition on Detroit going roller cam had more to do with lessening friction in the engines to get better mpg and meet CAFE rules.

 

[Kern Dog]

From what I'm understanding, the lack of zinc in oils for the sake of catalytic converters, and questionable metallurgy are the two main factors cam and or lifter failure became prevalent.

It looks like the increase in aggressive cam profiles and stiffer springs are factors as well.

 

[gtxrt]

for general motor cars they make a tool which I used on my nail head Buick. it cuts a groove in the lifter bore. you put the groove in a certain location. only down side you lose about 1 lb of oil pressure at idle. I can't see much good in the groove lifter which rotates and not always over the cam lobe but I guess it could help.

 

[Geoff 2]

You can do the same thing grooving the lifter itself, just need a Dremel. been doing it for 30 trs.