Custom Grind or Off the Shelf

[m79ded]

For those keeping score:

Jones-
208/216-108
.448/.457

Bullet-
230/234-108
.488/.503

Howard’s-*
233/239-110
.390/.400

Racer Brown-
220/220-110
.450/.450

*Howards cam recommendation likely to be revised

I Agree with Mr Porter that this is going in many directions and I certainly do not want to add to it. I mentioned the Howards 224-234 shelf cam. the Crower 271 or perhaps a bullet 220-228 @ 110 or 112.
I would go with Mr Porter's recommendation, he's very knowledgeable or perhaps call Bob K he's great at factory looking exhaust manifold cams. Order one from those 2 and you will be happy. I showed the posting to my builder Tom @ T.K race and he said the bullet 220-228 @ 110
Keep us posted

 

[wyrmrider]

Good find PRH
as you said the 1hf series are .842 lobes
the Mopar lobes are HF

Jones speced .842 lobes so I translated his seat durations 264-272 @.006 to Howards catalog grind similar to the Crower 267HDP or one of the Engles
No secret that I like the way Jones Picks cams

m79ded- whats the part number for the 267-275 220-228? 140@200 intake
I did not find that one??
I did find 267-267 220-220 140 @200 .506-.506 on 108 but for me no 108 with stock manifolds
and 271-281 224-234 518 144@200 543 112 but I do not like that much lift with stock rockers
The Crower 271 HDP would be about the same with rocker friendly lift

Bullet speced more of a strip/ street grind maybe similar to the 271HDP
Jones speced a street -strip cam I think the Crower 267HDP would be similar
and there is the Lunati
Either Crower has the lift that works - So Does Engle
To get the exhaust lift down on the shelf Howards (if necessary) they could use a lower exhaust I understand that there is not much of a price change but that would have to be verified
That would be in the strip-street class
Howard also has a 265-273 218-226 138@200 intake .502-.525 for the LA which could be ground on a RB billet- any LCA

So is it street strip or strip street?
up to you
then cost benefit Howards custom charge, Dart6999 @Crower
Lunati is most likely to be the least costly but I do not know the duration @200
which is an indicator of power

Picking cams from .050 is a waste of time seat timing and .200 can be way different and if either seat is too long or 200 is too short you loose

 

[m79ded]

Good find PRH
as you said the 1hf series are .842 lobes
the Mopar lobes are HF

Jones speced .842 lobes so I translated his seat durations 264-272 @.006 to Howards catalog grind similar to the Crower 267HDP or one of the Engles
No secret that I like the way Jones Picks cams

m79ded- whats the part number for the 267-275 220-228? 140@200 intake
I did not find that one??
I did find 267-267 220-220 140 @200 .506-.506 on 108 but for me no 108 with stock manifolds
and 271-281 224-234 518 144@200 543 112 but I do not like that much lift with stock rockers
The Crower 271 HDP would be about the same with rocker friendly lift

Bullet speced more of a strip/ street grind maybe similar to the 271HDP
Jones speced a street -strip cam I think the Crower 267HDP would be similar
and there is the Lunati
Either Crower has the lift that works - So Does Engle
To get the exhaust lift down on the shelf Howards (if necessary) they could use a lower exhaust I understand that there is not much of a price change but that would have to be verified
That would be in the strip-street class
Howard also has a 265-273 218-226 138@200 intake .502-.525 for the LA which could be ground on a RB billet- any LCA

So is it street strip or strip street?
up to you
then cost benefit Howards custom charge, Dart6999 @Crower
Lunati is most likely to be the least costly but I do not know the duration @200
which is an indicator of power

Picking cams from .050 is a waste of time seat timing and .200 can be way different and if either seat is too long or 200 is too short you loose

Here it is from Bullets lobe list. It's for 904 lifter. there is a H273 that can be used for intake lobes and it's asymmetrical for a gentler closing which is easier on valve train as OP requested

 

[451Mopar]

Good find PRH

So is it street strip or strip street?

That seems to be the best question.
The issue I worry about is that these cams do fall right in the middle of the street/strip split where the cam matches the desired description of street/strip, but is a compromise to both.
That is why for mostly street, stock/near stock converter, with a 383 as described, I like the lower end torque of the 220 and under intake duration @ 0.050". For more strip than street, get a high stall converter and use a cam with about 230 duration @ 0.050".

I also tend to lean towards the shorter duration cams because of the Altitude here in Denver. I'm sure they will all be better at lower altitude.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

That is why for mostly street, stock/near stock converter, with a 383 as described, I like the lower end torque of the 220 and under intake duration @ 0.050". For more strip than street, get a high stall converter a.

He has a 2500...which is a lot better then say a 1600. I always liked a 2500 w 3.55s for driving. Certainly could get a higher rpm but tight converter and drop 1/2 second of the e.t....did you have a converter in mind?

 

[Dodge Bros]

Main point of a custom cam is to maximize the combination with the engine parameters for the cars use. I don’t see how the racer brown cam does that. A big block Chevy or a Ford would run the Jones cam or the racer brown cam with the stock 1.7 rockers. In a Mopar a single pattern Howards 271/271, 224/224 @.050 with the .517/.517 lift, or a Bullet mopar grind 272/272 224/224 .503/.503 CTA on a 110lsa would pummel the Brown cam with 1.5s if the heads have any kind of decent flow, and still work with the stock rockers.

GM and Ford gain duration at .2” lift by higher ratio rocker 1.6-1.73. We have 1.5s, which often run 1.46-1.48. My opinion I would rather run bigger rocker arm with a .842 profile or run a profile designed for a .903” lifter with 1.5s. Stock rockers work fine at .5” lift. The head quit flowing at what ever the max lift of the cam is out at the valve. No reason to push the envelope to the max, but imho this should be closer to .5”-.530” lift than .45”. Other wise just use a book cam. FWIW

Here are some more mopar lobes, second one down is Howards .903 hft’s. The Bullet HFT is a couple post up in post 103, Bullet has some good .875” profiles too. They all have more .2” duration than what you see for a .842 lifter. A cam from Engle would be a contender also. The extra area under the curve for a bigger lifter profiles also tames the cam down a little compared to equal .050” specs for a .842” profile, and the mopar profile makes more power at the same time. Makes sense to use the mopar design attributes to our advantage.

 

[PRHeads]

It sure feels like early on the consensus was, call the cam companies..... they’ll know what you need.

Now that there are 4 recommendations from cam companies....... no one likes what they came up with.

I still think Russ nailed it with post #25.

Actually....... post numbers 2/25/36/43...... the voice of reason.

With the main point being....... without testing several....... you’ll never know what is actually the “best”....... or even what might be “better”.

 

[451Mopar]

It sure feels like early on the consensus was, call the cam companies..... they’ll know what you need.
Now that there are 4 recommendations from cam companies....... no one likes what they came up with.
I still think Russ nailed it with post #25.
Actually....... post numbers 2/25/36/43...... the voice of reason.
With the main point being....... without testing several....... you’ll never know what is actually the “best”....... or even what might be “better”.

Originally, I stayed away from this thread because too many assumptions need to be made.
All the recommendations are good depending on the blend of compromises chosen.

 

[wyrmrider]

If you have two cams that open and close at the same exact spots, and have the same max lift, the one with more area may not make any more power down low,
but will make more top-end power, and hold it longer.
The one with less area, will normally be down on power everywhere.
There are some cases where more area doesn't help, but that's not the norm.

Adding area, without adding duration changes the RPM band very little in most cases,
and just increases the power in that power band.

Mike Jones 2011

I was trying to use .200 as a proxy for area
and to apprpximate Mikes suggestion for seat duration
It's really easy to overcam a 383

 

[Dodge Bros]

So is there something going on with mopar profiles in Mopars that these cam guys are steering clear of them????

So far all the custom cams are torque type .842” lifter profiles? Not sure what Tim at Bullet picked. Next time I talk to him I will ask.

I notice Racer Brown has his EH20 listed with 1.7 rocker. Makes it look like a different animal. .509 lift.

 

[PRHeads]

All the recommendations are good depending on the blend of compromises chosen.

Including the Howard’s .390/.400 lift rule grind?
Cuz you know if the OP had said, “sure...... I’ll take it”...... and forked over his credit card number...... that’s what would have shown up on the Brown truck.

It would have all the bad manners of the 286/292 seat timing and 233/239@.050, and the poor overall dynamics that go along with the typical lift rule design lobes........ and then it’s way short on lift, when compared to even the most bread and butter street lobes.

 

[451Mopar]

If you have two cams that open and close at the same exact spots, and have the same max lift, the one with more area may not make any more power down low,
but will make more top-end power, and hold it longer.
The one with less area, will normally be down on power everywhere.
There are some cases where more area doesn't help, but that's not the norm.

Adding area, without adding duration changes the RPM band very little in most cases,
and just increases the power in that power band.

Mike Jones 2011

I was trying to use .200 as a proxy for area
and to apprpximate Mikes suggestion for seat duration
It's really easy to overcam a 383

It would be interesting to see the difference between the cams, not on a dyno, but in the actual car.
The engines torque curve shape and range needs to match up to what the cars chassis and drivetrain likes, not which cam makes best peak HP.
Some of the larger duration cam recommendations may be considering future changes too.
The modified torque converter stall "rating" is likely going to change depending on the cam chosen. I would rather have a bit too much stall than too little.
I really like the high rate cams, and were talking cams in an engine that might realistically only rev 5,500 - 6,000 RPM max.
On the other hand, the high rate of lift cams put a lot more stress on the 40-50 year old stock rocker arms which can end up having the pushrod break through the cup of the stamped rocker. The other is the fast ramp rate is less forgiving of pour oil quality and lifter bore roundness (lifter rotation) as far a lobe wear is concerned.
The lower rate of lift lobes (given equal quality of materials and lobe taper) should have less wear on the lifters/lobes, and because the valve is moving slower and with lower lift, the rocker arm stress is reduced quite a bit. Even more stress is reduced if valve train motion is controlled with a lighter pressure valve spring. Really good for daily driver OEM stuff, not so good for power.

 

[PRHeads]

I notice Racer Brown has his EH20 listed with 1.7 rocker. Makes it look like a different animal. .509 lift.

It’s still just a .300 lobe.

 

[Dodge Bros]

Yep, same profile still a .3. I thought it was interesting he had it list for the 1.7 bbc and the 1.73 fords. Must be pretty gentle.

We used a 218/218 .445/.445 112 lsa in a 400, it had longer seat timings than that EH-20, more like factory mopar cams. Previous 400 in the car had a six pack cam we had from a factory six pack engine from our 70 Cuda. The 218/218 had a rougher idle than the six pack, six pack cam was noticeable more powerful on the top end.

 

[wyrmrider]

MY RECAP

another great find PRH #113
Dodge Bros post 196
Thanks where did you find that Lunati information. Lunati Has not published a lobe list catalog in a long time
VH41-VH47 look like good lobes
you can compare BH43 with Mikes recommendation and see how much difference a MOPAR lobe makes
and compare with the other mopar lobe
Jones 265 208 .299 .842 lifter but I think he nails the street-strip build for 9.7 CR
Engle 260 214 127 .313 .470 (260@.008)
Lunati 265 220 138 .317
Howard 265 218 138 .335 .502
Crower 267 HDP
Bullet 267 214 131 or 136 ..................I would not know which one to pick
Howard 267 220 140 .337

Bullet 268 229 130 .326 aswymetrical
Howard 269 222 142 .342
Crower 271 HDP
Lunati 271 226 145 .329
Howard 271 224 144 .345
Bullet 273 220 137 .330 491
Engle 268 224 140 .336 .504 (268@.008)
Bullet 275 231 149 .3500 bullet recommended symetrical


The comp list show that they do not have a cam in the duration range we are looking at- The Thumper lobes are also .904 but...
"Main point of a custom cam is to maximize the combination with the engine parameters for the cars use. I don’t see how the racer brown cam does that." AGREE
"A cam from Engle would be a contender also. " I posted Engle somewhee - OP can add to his wish list
"The extra area under the curve for a bigger lifter profiles also tames the cam down a little compared to equal .050” specs for a .842” profile,
and the mopar profile makes more power at the same time. Makes sense to use the mopar design attributes to our advantage." AGREE


PRH post 107 reminds us of some of BSB67's posts post 2 BSB67 nailed it but in this case all over the place
BSB67 post 25 all excellent questions
"A reasonably and logically chosen cam out of just about anyone's cam catalog will be better than the two custom cams that have been recommended.'
If you pick Howards, Engle, Lunati, Crower yes and you know enough to pick the Mopar lobes Howard gives 15 in notes and Lunati puts in Voodoo
the rest take some discerning
If you pick Comp or Erson or Isky you are SOL Crane is luck of the draw as the Mopar cams are not identified yo have to special order

"Also, you need to ask yourself, why did these two guys give you such drastically different recommendations?
I think it is ambuiguity of Street vs "Spend time at the track" in post 1

Post 35 most street neophite pick too big a cam
There is most likely 25 hp between a 268 comp and lunati and I'm more interessted in midrange than peak \
too easy to go peak hp with lots of durtion and rev the snot out of it- but is that what is wanted here

BSB67 post 43 great post

108 you are too kind 451 some suggestions were terrible (and if you called back to some tech lines you can get several terrible answers
I'm just trying to get the 383 builder to be able to see the differences before he pushes ADD TO CART
I may not always have the best answer but myself and the rest of the posters are trying to make sure he does not make a big mistake- so far so good

"110 Jones was 842 that's all he has except for his best in class 256 grind (he recommeends solids) Bullets was .903 but symetrcal and a pretty big duration
Raceer Brown- noarea under the curve there (very disappointed) "I'm not hunting for max lift but max area for the duration and big nose for durability

jones 264
post 111 That Howards is a joke 47 degrees .006-.050 OP (both sides) will know more about cams than that phone bank dude Talk aabout no area under the curve

Post 112 451Mopar
I for one am not going for maximum "my disck is bigger than your dick" horsepower. Even at the drags he is not running in a heads up class
He needs to run the torque converter he has to get a baseline
pushrod through the rocker can be a problem with any cam more spring pressure and high reves make it worse
I recommend oil through the pushrood not only for oiling the rocker but to cool it
I would not recommend the -3 howard "agressive" lobes or the race Crane's, Engles etc From some of the lobe lists (Bullet) you can't tell which lobes are which
my best guess is to subtract .050 from advertised but they know much more about their lobes than an observer does.
On shelf cams you can check the recommended springs

 

[451Mopar]

I guess i did not read all the posts to see all that were suggested.
I was refering the the cams I have actually used.
My original 383 that I built in the late 1980's is close in specs and application, and ran the Crower 271 cam, but with headers.
It is a decent cam, but I felt like it was just a bit big for "street", and didn't pull on the top end like a big cam either.
Originally I had the Weiand Stealth dual plane intake, which was OK for "street", but seemed to limit the higher RPM power.
Back then there was no Performer RPM type intake which would have been a better match to the combination.
I then used the Weiand excellerator single plane. The engine seemed to like it from 2,500-6,000 RPM, but with my stock converter a bit slow off the line.
You have to remember that at my altitude, I am down about 20% power than if at sea-level, so for street use I tend to like milider cams.
I mentioned the Hughes Engines SEH1620 cam because I used one in a mild 360 with about 9.5:1 compression, and stock hi-stall converter, and really liked the results.
That Cam for the B-Block is SEH1620BL-12 It is 216/220@ 0.050", 0.495"/0.503" lift @ 1.5:1 rocker ratio. 112 LSA with 108 ICL.
In my 360, I ran the 1.6:1 rockers so got a bit more lift out of it, and maybe a tad more duration at the valve.

In the other thread with Nicks Garage 383 build, it shows the power that can be made with a large cam, but it is totally different setup than what the poster mentioned. That engine is single plane, headers, and higher RPM power.

I also did not mean to scare people away from the stock rocker arms system. It is good, and I did not have any problems with the crower 271 cam using stock rocker arms in my 383. You would just need to assess the condition of the originals. Mopar Performance used to sell replacements stamped out of thicker metal too. I don't know how good the replacements are from TRW?
The issue I did have with the 383 was accidently down shifting from Drive, past second and into first gear, over-reving the engine and bouncing the intake valves off the Sealed Power flat Tops that have no valve reliefs.

 

[LowDeck451]

Wyrmrider, 451 Mopar...
Appreciate all the research you guys and others are doing, but I can’t dig through lobe lists and pick a cam... screw it up for sure. If you guys are talking amongst yourselves, that’s fine, just sayin’. Since I need a baseline cam anyway, I‘m going to get a shelf cam, Crower 267 or Voodoo 702, might even flip a coin. I had an urge to go with Jim’s cam out of sheer curiosity but, back to the baseline idea, I’ll let the tiebreaker (for me) be the cost. Forgot to ask Jim what his cam costs, but the other customs are about $250. Thanks again guys, I’ll let you know.

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

Wyrmrider, 451 Mopar...
Appreciate all the research you guys and others are doing, but I can’t dig through lobe lists and pick a cam... screw it up for sure. If you guys are talking amongst yourselves, that’s fine, just sayin’. Since I need a baseline cam anyway, I‘m going to get a shelf cam, Crower 267 or Voodoo 702, might even flip a coin. I had an urge to go with Jim’s cam out of sheer curiosity but, back to the baseline idea, I’ll let the tiebreaker (for me) be the cost. Forgot to ask Jim what his cam costs, but the other customs are about $250. Thanks again guys, I’ll let you know.

This thread is funny. You have one of the most knowledgable bb mopar guys posting on your thread. Several of us run cams he’s spec’d. He has an extremely good running 383 that runs in FAST. Low 11’s I believe in a 68 b body, and your haven’t figured it out..

 

[LowDeck451]

This thread is funny. You have one of the most knowledgable bb mopar guys posting on you’re thread. Several of us run cams he’s spec’d. He has an extremely good running 383 that runs in FAST. Low 11’s I believe in a 68 b body, and your haven’t figured it out..[/QUOTE
As I said from the beginning, I might pick a shelf grind, I don’t question the knowledge of anyone who has given advice. Nobody seems to like any of the customs so fine, shelf it is. And if they want to criticize my choice, they can tell me, not you. Bye!

 

[Dodge Bros]

A roller cam F.A.S.T. build 383 stroker engine with 12+ compression is not going to have much in common with the cam for this.

Wrmrider summed it up well. Pick the better cam that fits. Set your bench mark high.

JMHO. If you want to start with a high bench mark I would call Lunati and have them change the 702 to a 110 lsa. Not the 112 Lsa shelf 702 cam..Lunati does that for free, only down side is paying for shipped, versus free shipping from the parts warehouses.

The Lunati’s is the more modern profile of the two cams your looking at. Probably similar in peak power, the difference would show up more in the average power.

451Mopar, LOL, that looks like the valve to piston marks on one of our 383s. Ours happened somewhere around 6500-7000 with a MP484 cam.