my perfect cooling system

[RJRENTON]

You are correct but with the radiators has been the biggest complaint i have read hear as to fitting radiator with electric fans I understand the water pump I understand the speed at which they can flow and gallons per hour i'm not a mathematician or engineer. and i wasn't trying to get into the water pump at this point I was trying to keep this a simple explanation as not to confuse others after having to explain to people for 40 years what’s wrong with your car that have no knowledge of mechanical things trying to put it on a simple level is all I’m doing go ahead and pick on me I don’t care if you don’t want my help then I’ll stop the post now

Sometimes the KISS principle is advantageous, sometimes not. This is an example of more than a simplistic view is needed. There are many factors involved that can be explained at a less complex level, but one must be amenable to accept the explanation and if further understanding or explanation is needed, to ask for it. IF one has learned how to to use the various social media venues with out formal education to it, one should be able to understand a simple explanation of thermodynamics underlying principles....it not that difficult. How many of us are self educated with regard to the car's operation or engine rebuilding process or cam selection or.....
BOB RENTON

 

[Ccas]

How much of these cooling problems are due to either modified engines or poor condition of the cooling components (incl. blocked coolant passages)? Did they overheat back in the day when they were new?

The reason I ask is I have a 22" factory radiator (re-cored), standard water pump, factory 4 blade fan (the most basic fan of all), no fan shroud, and my car runs at 180 nearly all day in a climate very similar to Miami (but perhaps a bit hotter inland a few miles).

Engine is a high compression (10.5:1) 318 poly, bored 0.60, and the temperature is spot on virtually all the time (it will creep to say 185 if I'm in heavy traffic on a very hot day, say 100 degrees).

Is it the big blocks that have most of the issues?

So many factors that contribute to a cool running motor or a hot running motor. All the stars aligned for your combination! lol! Others aren't so lucky. So that's why the debates rage on about aluminum vs stock. Both proponents are right....depending on the situation.

There should be very little debate that aluminum dissipates heat better. Not that everyone needs aluminum, but comparing apples to apples, aluminum cools better, is more durable and therefore statistically lasts longer. That doesn't mean a copper/brass unit won't get a particular job done just as well. Then within aluminum, there's all these different designs. Some are good, some are bad and some are in between.

The problem is that every car is different and sometimes it's not worth chasing down a gremlin or just plain taking a chance that you are not going to be happy with a stock cooling solution. It's those times where Aluminum shines because you know you are getting the best heat dissipation and if you choose the right design, you know you are getting the maximum volume as well. Since aluminum is now less expensive than copper/brass radiators, cost is no longer a hindering factor.

Copper/brass is what came in the car. If originality is important, then you stay with it and if you run hot you figure out the gremlins and hope you don't have to sacrifice originality in another way.

So there's a strong argument for aluminum especially now since companies like Griffin and Cold Case are making stamped tank units that look pretty original. These are just some things to think about when considering whether to stay with your original radiator, recoring/restoring the original or switching to aluminum.

 

[moparedtn]

Is true. The Griffin I referenced is "only" a 2 row - but that's two rows of 1.25" tubes!
That thing is solidly built and even the fins are serious kit.
I figure since mine runs exceptionally cool once underway (and never warms all the
way up in colder weather) that I have plenty of radiator.
I need to work on the standstill idling airflow through the thing now and the 7-blade
fan might need a bit of upgrading, even with the stock shroud.

 

[RJRENTON]

So many factors that contribute to a cool running motor or a hot running motor. All the stars aligned for your combination! lol! Others aren't so lucky. So that's why the debates rage on about aluminum vs stock. Both proponents are right....depending on the situation.

There should be very little debate that aluminum dissipates heat better. Not that everyone needs aluminum, but comparing apples to apples, aluminum cools better, is more durable and therefore statistically lasts longer. That doesn't mean a copper/brass unit won't get a particular job done just as well. Then within aluminum, there's all these different designs. Some are good, some are bad and some are in between.

The problem is that every car is different and sometimes it's not worth chasing down a gremlin or just plain taking a chance that you are not going to be happy with a stock cooling solution. It's those times where Aluminum shines because you know you are getting the best heat dissipation and if you choose the right design, you know you are getting the maximum volume as well. Since aluminum is now less expensive than copper/brass radiators, cost is no longer a hindering factor.

Copper/brass is what came in the car. If originality is important, then you stay with it and if you run hot you figure out the gremlins and hope you don't have to sacrifice originality in another way.

So there's a strong argument for aluminum especially now since companies like Griffin and Cold Case are making stamped tank units that look pretty original. These are just some things to think about when considering whether to stay with your original radiator, recoring/restoring the original or switching to aluminum.

I appreciate your viewpoint. I'm a registered Professional Electrical Engineer that did high temperature high pressure gas to gas heat exchangers in industrial applications (oil refineries, steel mills aerospace, etc) manufactured with exotic metals (SS 304, 309, 310, 316, 800HT, Carpenter 20, Incoloy 600, 601, 625, as well as the ferritic stainless alloys 409, 430, etc) as well as bi-metal aluminum (3000 series) in aluminium furnace brazed air cooled heat exchangers. One thing that is absolutely crucial in successful heat exchanger design is surface area of the heat exchanger and the velocity and volumes of the heat transfer media, be it a fluid or air and air is considered a fluid. And in an automotive application the fins per inch count (the greater the fins/inch count the better the heat transfer) of the air side of the heat exchanger and the surface contact area of the liquid transport tubes with the fins.
BOB RENTON

 

[Crash520]

What are your thoughts on the Northern Radiator? Crossflow, 1” tubes
https://www.northernradiator.com/Product/205029
Im looking at one of these

 

[vance.dykes]

What are your thoughts on the Northern Radiator? Crossflow, 1” tubes
https://www.northernradiator.com/Product/205029
Im looking at one of these

as i said i looked for 2 to 3 months for what rad to use i did not see that rad in my quest. i chose the American eagle rad thru champion NOT based on price but what info i read and complaints about the products . as has been said the surface area AND FIN design is what i looked at . i have had to replace rad's from other shops as there would not let the a/c work correct i.e cold air from dash vents 34 deg is normal so when your vent temps are 50 you will not be comfortable . the car would not over heat but when i looked at the rad's side buy side the fin count was have of the factory unit after replacement of that unit now temps 30 deg out of vents. so please do your research take your time then pull the trigger and see what happens . if you are not having problems then you are not trying or if you don't go for it someone will. to try and fail is to find a way to win. good luck.

 

[vance.dykes]

Sometimes the KISS principle is advantageous, sometimes not. This is an example of more than a simplistic view is needed. There are many factors involved that can be explained at a less complex level, but one must be amenable to accept the explanation and if further understanding or explanation is needed, to ask for it. IF one has learned how to to use the various social media venues with out formal education to it, one should be able to understand a simple explanation of thermodynamics underlying principles....it not that difficult. How many of us are self educated with regard to the car's operation or engine rebuilding process or cam selection or.....
BOB RENTON

i did not ask for help in this post and you are the smartest guy hear so no one can teach you anything as you know more than most of us . some time the simple people make more cents then any collage smarts. i have seen common cents is worth more than a 100000 school smarts so if some one doesn't ask for help why would talk down to them just to make you feel smarter than the rest of the world.

 

[RJRENTON]

i did not ask for help in this post and you are the smartest guy hear so no one can teach you anything as you know more than most of us . some time the simple people make more cents the any collage smarts i have seen common cents is worth more than a 100000 school smarts so if some one doesn't ask for help why would talk down to them just to make you feel smarter than the rest of the world.

Sorry that you misinterpreted my intention, which was for you to do your own investigation of which cooling system is corrrct for the intended application rather just taking the suppliers word for why his/her product is best. The suppliers intention is to have you (generically) buy their product. If you (generically) do not understand the stated critetia, ask the supplier to better explain what is being presented. Many (not all) radiator suppliers say their product can cool *** HP, BUT heat exchangers (radiators) are designed cool a certain amount of heat, not HP, per a given time period, specificly Btu's / Hr or some unit of time. Without specific information its an equivalent of comparing apples and oranges. The "they said" rule simply does not apply with out substantiation.....just my opinion of course.....but, its your car...do what suits you...
BOB RENTON

 

[vance.dykes]

Sorry that you misinterpreted my intention, which was for you to do your own investigation of which cooling system is corrrct for the intended application rather just taking the suppliers word for why his/her product is best. The suppliers intention is to have you (generically) buy their product. If you (generically) do not understand the stated critetia, ask the supplier to better explain what is being presented. Many (not all) radiator suppliers say their product can cool *** HP, BUT heat exchangers (radiators) are designed cool a certain amount of heat, not HP, per a given time period, specificly Btu's / Hr or some unit of time. Without specific information its an equivalent of comparing apples and oranges. The "they said" rule simply does not apply with out substantiation.....just my opinion of course.....but, its your car...do what suits you...
BOB RENTON

in the first post i said i spent 3-4 month of time and effort to buy what i bought . i was trying to help others that dont understand the statements you have said. i was trying to say simply put how i came to my decision . i have seen people on hear not even know how to set timing or find specks for there car thru google so to put all the technical terms in as you did would like putting lip stick on a pig. not mad or peeved at you i thank you for your knowledge but some people wont read a book and can be chased away by all the teck stuff

 

[vance.dykes]

 

[vance.dykes]

the first picture is of the a/c condenser and at the top you can see the air dam i made to close the opening to direct the air in to the condenser as the next pic shows the bottom and the air dam to close and direct air in to the condenser the third pic is the side is where i used the plastic fake card board cut to fit the sides this is how i plan to make as much air as possible to go thru the condenser you get the idea .

 

[vance.dykes]

So here is the shroud mounted to the radiator you can see the foam that was from the packaging of the radiator to seal the shroud to the radiator the white piece in between the two fans is a support so when the fan start to bounce running together they won’t hit the radiator and caused a leak. I took a measurement so you could see that it’s five and five eights of an inch total height I had to use small spacers so that it would fit flush to the radiator support. With it installed you can see if there’s about a half inch to 3/4 of an inch room between the fans and the water pump even with the quarter inch spacer added between The shroud and the radiator

 

[vance.dykes]

 

[vance.dykes]

 

[vance.dykes]

i have the derale duel fan controller so that when 1 fan starts to run it is a slow start then ramps up to full speed as not to shock the charging system the second fan will do the same depending on the need . when the a/c comes on the fan /fans will start slow and then go to full speed.

the fan controller idea and these fans was from 5.7 hemi so thanks

 

[Wietse]

Think it is indeed very important to close all the gaps around the shroud, every space there will pull "false" air that did not participate in the air flow through the radiator core and would be a loss of efficiency.
You are still using a stock type coolant pump? I see some are using high flow pumps on a stock-ish engine that does not require any higher flow.
If coolant flow is too fast the temperature difference across the radiator is not high enough and the coolant comes out of the radiator still too hot.

 

[yella71]

that factory alt keeps up?

 

[vance.dykes]

that factory alt keeps up?

i had my re-builder up date that alt it is 75 amp with a heavy duty regulator that is attached to the alt so a one 12 v wire runs from it.i will be starting the car in the next week as im down to little things to tidy up so we will see . but i have changed all lights to led and digital dash only the fuel inj system and the ele fans are the biggest draw that is why i used the fan controller it will slowly bring the fans on as not to shock the alt/reg. then speed up as needed on one or both as needed based on temp..

 

[vance.dykes]

Think it is indeed very important to close all the gaps around the shroud, every space there will pull "false" air that did not participate in the air flow through the radiator core and would be a loss of efficiency.
You are still using a stock type coolant pump? I see some are using high flow pumps on a stock-ish engine that does not require any higher flow.
If coolant flow is too fast the temperature difference across the radiator is not high enough and the coolant comes out of the radiator still too hot.

i have a aluminum water pump housing and hi flow water pump all mopar parts. i have a hi-flow t-stat so if the coolant is moving to fast i will install a stock style t-stat as the hole is smaller and not as big as the hi-flow so it would slow down the coolant.

this is a 451 stroker .030 over bored with a mild cam shaft stage 6 mopar aluminum heads so not stock.

 

[Wietse]

i have a aluminum water pump housing and hi flow water pump all mopar parts. i have a hi-flow t-stat so if the coolant is moving to fast i will install a stock style t-stat as the hole is smaller and not as big as the hi-flow so it would slow down the coolant.

If the coolant flow would be too fast the radiator outlet temperature would be hotter, if you would be able to monitor that temperature you could see if it makes a difference between standard flow and high flow.
But if this works it means the radiator has sufficient efficiency.

Thing to remember is that not all coolant passes through the radiator once coming from the engine, a part of the hot water is returned and mixed with the cooled water return from the radiator and goes back into the cooling pump suction.
That mixed result inlet temperature, and the heat absorbed from the engine make the outlet temperature that you see on the temp gauge, and that same temperature is what your thermostat is trying to control.
If the heat input from the engine increases due to more load, the outlet water temperature is higher and will open the thermostat more so it will send more coolant to the radiator and less back to the engine pump inlet.
That's why the flow through the radiator needs to result in the right temperature difference (ΔT), too fast of a flow will not reach this and wil result in a too high water inlet temperature, which results in a higher outlet temperature.

A 180* thermostat will start to open @ 180*, but might only be fully open at 195*.
So when seeing 190* on the gauge after a strip run is normal as the heat absorbed from the engine is suddenly very high and the thermostat will be able to bring that down again after several minutes when the load is gone.
When standing in traffic at hot days and seeing +190* is therefore actually showing your cooling system is not able to provide sufficient cooling.
Of course is the air flow low, an a/c condensor is another air flow obstruction and causes an increased air temperature to pass the radiator so these things do increase the temperature to maybe 186-188* in a healthy system.
In the above case a temperature of 195* or higher proves the thermostat is fully open and is no longer able to control the temperature as it is sending the maximum amount of water to the radiator for cooling.

Turned out a little long, but just something to read for the ones who want to know i guess.