Need some engine advice

[dadsbee]

You having fun yet Joel... FFS ! Sorry to see this mess has reared it's head again....

 

[MoparLeo]

Just another example of "trust but verify"
If it makes noises or doesn't move smoothly, Stop. Something is wrong.
Noises generally do not just go away. They get worse. Be a good owner and double check things for yourself. Get the rockers without the rollers. They look better than they work and are just one more small part to fail.
Usually a good shop will work with you as word of mouth is the best AND the worst advertising they can get.
Unfortunately most people like to immediately badmouth someone without giving them any chance to take care of the problem.
Companies with poor customer service do not stay in business very long.
Bravo for IMM for being good business people.

 

[hunt2elk]

Get the rockers without the rollers. They look better than they work and are just one more small part to fail.

You are recommending either the Hughes or Mancini rockers without the needle bearings I presume?

 

[hunt2elk]

You having fun yet Joel... FFS ! Sorry to see this mess has reared it's head again....

I'm really not Wayne. But have finally figured out that there are way worse things in this world to get wound up about than a motor. Can't believe all the issues I have had with this one though, I must have jinxed it somewhere along the line. This car is out of commission, and the Road Runner is in a gazillion pieces. Good thing I have the Duster to romp around in. That car with its 4-speed and 408(also built by Brian) is the best driving and most fun car I have ever owned. My goal is to get the 2 B bodies to handle and run like the Duster. Now I suppose I should be knocking on some wood or something so I don't throw a curse at that car....

 

[BSB67]

I'm really not Wayne. But have finally figured out that there are way worse things in this world to get wound up about than a motor. Can't believe all the issues I have had with this one though, I must have jinxed it somewhere along the line. This car is out of commission, and the Road Runner is in a gazillion pieces. Good thing I have the Duster to romp around in. That car with its 4-speed and 408(also built by Brian) is the best driving and most fun car I have ever owned. My goal is to get the 2 B bodies to handle and run like the Duster. Now I suppose I should be knocking on some wood or something so I don't throw a curse at that car....

Really, really hard to beat the driving experience of a 4 speed-A body car, IMO.

 

[PRHeads]

I babied it for the first 500 miles and after that got on it pretty good while carb tuning.

Just curious........ how high were you revving it during the carb tuning hot lap sessions?
Did you get a copy of the dyno sheet?
Just wondering how high they took it during the dyno test.

My experience has been that fast rate hyd cams + 1.6 rockers aren’t usually a very happy combo at rpms much higher than around 55-5600.

Edit- looked at your original thread.
Looks like it hung on good to 6000.

 

[hunt2elk]

Just curious........ how high were you revving it during the carb tuning hot lap sessions?
Did you get a copy of the dyno sheet?
Just wondering how high they took it during the dyno test.

My experience has been that fast rate hyd cams + 1.6 rockers aren’t usually a very happy combo at rpms much higher than around 55-5600.

Edit- looked at your original thread.
Looks like it hung on good to 6000.

And I never go past about 5200. The rev limiter is set for 5800 I believe and I have never hit that.

 

[hunt2elk]

Update on this thread. Last fall Brian at IMM sent me a new PRW 1.6 stainless steel rocker shaft kit and Johnson lifters. Got that together and measured for new pushrods. I was able to get the motor back together last fall and put about 30 miles on it before the first snowstorm hit and the roads were salted. The major top end noise went away, and now has the same quiter noise that it had when I got the motor back from him, so I would think that is normal.
I am still not happy with the low end power that the motor puts out and want to try fixing it. It is fine above 4k or so, but below that it is a dog. Tough to smoke the tires unless dumping the clutch, and that should not be the case with the torque it makes.
2 things I believe are causing the issue. One is the bottleneck of the Weiand Action + intake, and the other is possibly not a decent cam selection.
I was able to find an old Edelbrock TM6 and have a line on a Holley Street Dominator. Both shorter single planes that I now know will fit under my Airgrabber ductwork. I plan on using the Holley if I can get it bought.
So my dilemma is, sense it is winter and can't drive the car, do I do some research and think of replacing the cam now along with the intake? Would these Johnson lifters with 30 miles on them be ok with a new camshaft? Who would be the best person/company to talk to about a good cam?

To refresh, the car is a 1969 Super Bee, 3850 pounds, 18 spline 4-speed, Strange 60 3.23's, 28" tall rear tires. Motor spec shown. Quick Fuel Q850, Trick Flow 240's, TTI headers and 3" exhaust.

 

[hunt2elk]

Maybe these pics are clearer.

 

[Hemirunner]

Do you know what ICL the cam was installed on? Have you plugged all that into the Wallace Racing Calculator? It looks as though your dynamic CR is 8.42 without taking altitude into consideration. Your theoretical cranking compression is 168psi. A quick cranking compression test might be in order to verify.
I still think a gear change is what it will take to give you what you want. Look at modern combinations and calculate the final drive ratio in low gear to give low end performance. You’re nowhere close to that and even if the cam was in retarded, 15ft/lbs additional torque won’t bridge that gap.

 

[hunt2elk]

I don't know where the cam is installed. I didn't check the cranking compression, but was told it is 170 psi.

 

[padam]

I don't blame you for being pissed.
A common 383 with headers and 3.55 gears should be able to smoke the tires at will.

 

[gtxrt]

just my opinion. cam is too big with only 9.6 compression with aluminium heads, plus no way on a 114 LSA which really hurts. comp cams extreme energy 230-236 on 110 LSA with 106 centerline. holley street dominator or ch4b for hood clearance if not edelbrock rpm performer would be best. last thing if you really need to 26.5-27 inch tire would bring you back to your 3.23 gear right now your at about 3.05 gear ratio. what about your initial and total timing.

 

[451Mopar]

I didn't realize you have had so many issues with that engine?
I started looking at some of the numbers, and getting some inconstancy with rod length (or piston compression height)?
The Build sheet shows 6.760", but the piston sheet I think is 6.700".
The 6.700" plus the pistons stated compression height of 1.205" should produce a zero deck height in a 9.980" block with 4.15" stroke crank.
If the rods were 6.760" then with the stated compression height, the piston would be hitting the head?
The pistons show a 30 cc open dish, so with a 0.040" head gasket, compression ratio should calculate to about 9.35:1?
I think you mentioned a 0.051" or so head gasket so compression would be even lower around 9.16:1?
The engine is alot lower compression that I thought, so the cam is too big if you were looking for low end torque.

Did you check the cranking cylinder pressure? I'm thinking it might be around 125 psi?

 

[PRHeads]

I’d be inclined to have it chassis dynoed before I changed anything.

That being said, hot street engine combos are all about compromises.
You want something that has brutal low end grunt? .... put in a smaller cam ground on a tighter lsa.
But that will result in less upper end HP....... and it might ping.

There aren’t many things you can do that are truly a “win-win”.
It’s usually a “trade”.

Sounds like you need a 572.

The original Torker is great for pumping up the low end power on a stroker. It won’t be stellar up top though.

 

[hunt2elk]

holley street dominator or ch4b for hood clearance if not edelbrock rpm performer would be best. what about your initial and total timing.

A Edelbrock RPM will not fit under the fresh air ductwork. I'm trying to find a Street Dominator and that is what I'll put on it. Timing is 20 initial and 34 all in at 2900rpm.

 

[hunt2elk]

I didn't realize you have had so many issues with that engine?
I started looking at some of the numbers, and getting some inconstancy with rod length (or piston compression height)?
The Build sheet shows 6.760", but the piston sheet I think is 6.700".
The 6.700" plus the pistons stated compression height of 1.205" should produce a zero deck height in a 9.980" block with 4.15" stroke crank.
If the rods were 6.760" then with the stated compression height, the piston would be hitting the head?
The pistons show a 30 cc open dish, so with a 0.040" head gasket, compression ratio should calculate to about 9.35:1?
I think you mentioned a 0.051" or so head gasket so compression would be even lower around 9.16:1?
The engine is alot lower compression that I thought, so the cam is too big if you were looking for low end torque.

Did you check the cranking cylinder pressure? I'm thinking it might be around 125 psi?

Yes, a pile of issues and money in this motor. I'm about ready to pull it out and take it somewhere else to start over. I have almost 14k into it now, so am having a hard time swallowing a redo.
The writing on the build sheet of rod length being 6.760" is mine, so I am sure I made a mistake writing it down. Yes the piston sheet shows 6.700", which is no doubt correct.
Brian told me that the pistons are .007" out of the hole. .051" head gasket. The dish of the piston is 30.010.

 

[451Mopar]

Having the piston 0.007 above deck makes sense of the numbers.
You mentioned it originally had detonation issues? Guessing it had Flat top pistons before and around 12:1 compression?
Anyhow, the combination seems a bit odd to me?

Both my 451 and 500 strokers were higher compression engines. The 451 was 11:1, and the 500 is 12.4:1 compression.
The 451 used an ultradyne 251/251@ 0.050" cam 108 LSA installed around 104 ICL.
The 500 started with a Comp HXL 264/264 @ 0.050" 112 LSA, 108 ICL cam, but now has (I think) a 274/278 @ 0.050" 110 LSA, 108 ICL cam.
The larger cam did seem to soften the low end, but the top end seems happier now. The smaller cam looked like it was surging on the top end?
Never tracked it down if it was the weaker valve springs or 0.083" wall pushrods, or the wider LSA (less overlap?). All that got changed and upgraded with the new cam, stiffer springs and 0.120" wall pushrods.

 

[gtxrt]

missed read the piston sheet thought it was 18 cc dish but that was 18 volume. am getting 9.45 with .007 piston out of hole, like 8.5-8.75 on a iron head. smaller cam should not cause pinging i would think with that compression. 8008 intake is hurting you. holley sd or torker would work. yes combo. intake, cam. you might just be happy. better than starting over. tires would would be last thing if needed

 

[hunt2elk]

Having the piston 0.007 above deck makes sense of the numbers.
You mentioned it originally had detonation issues? Guessing it had Flat top pistons before and around 12:1 compression?
Anyhow, the combination seems a bit odd to me?

After getting the first engine in the car, I babied it for 500 miles. Then started getting on it and trying to tune. Every single time the secondaries opened, it would detonate. He had me drop the timing down to 30 degrees, change to colder spark plugs, slow the advance curve. Nothing helped until I dumped a bunch of 106 race fuel in the tank. Then it ran very strong. This went on for the first summer I had it in the car. That's when a buddy came over and he found some discrepancies in the numbers Brian had wrote on the engine sheet. Brian then figured he made some mistakes and the compression ratio was higher than he thought, preventing it to run on 91 octane. I did check the cranking compression at that time and it was 190 psi. I pulled the motor, built a crate, hauled it to a freight terminal, and sent it back to CA. He tore it apart without throwing back on his dyno. He measured the compression at 10.5, I believe. It did have flat top pistons. He decided to replace the flat tops with the dish to lower the compression to 9.6:1 and give it some kind of quench. Also the cam was changed to drop the cranking compression down to 170. Trying to eliminate any possibility of detonation. He gets it all back together and on the dyno. First pull couldn't be completed as it started detonating. Come to find out that the MSD distributor was riding up and adding like 15 degrees of timing. Did it every time. Now the big question is if that was the case, why didn't it show up on the first build? So he puts a $2 bushing on the distributor shaft and the detonation is gone. Crated it up and sent it back to me. I drove it probably 1000 miles last summer and that is when it got very noisy. Found that a couple of the rocker hold down nuts had come off. So last fall he sent me new rockers, shafts, lifters, and pushrods. And this leads up to where I am now. Unhappy with the performance of a motor that a well respected builder put together knowing exactly what I wanted (at least 550 hp and torque, torque down low, not concerned about anything over 5500 rpm) and knew exactly what car, transmission, rearend ratio, and tire height was going to be.