Fred is dead!

[moparedtn]

Thanks for all the advice, everyone.
Update after some rudimentary diagnostics today:
a. fusible link is ok. When I connected it directly to battery, horn/lights/etc. all work fine, so inside
wiring is not suspect at this time.
b. Starter is intact, no damage visually of anything down there (I was half expecting to see busted stuff);
in fact, wiring, starter, bell, etc. all appear snug and undamaged.
Doesn't mean the starter is any good, I know...
c. when relay to solenoid wire is connected directly to battery, nothing happens at all. That ain't good...

Two immediate steps next in the process, once parts procured:
1)replace starter relay and 2)jump battery with known good one in the Ram.

This should all but rule out everything except the starter itself - and the nightmare it represents to replace,
what with headers and clutch linkage and all that in the way.
You know that drill - drain cooling system, take header loose, etc.
If I go that far, the battery to starter cable will also be replaced again out of caution as well; a new relay to
solenoid wire will also be fabricated and replace the original one, too.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Replace both battery cables first...... If for no other reason than it's a heck of a lot easier than changing the starter...

 

[Kern Dog]

This car:

Had a battery that showed 12.5V but it cranked slow. I replaced both cables and it spins over like new now. I thought the starter was failing but the cables looked "seasoned" so I figured I'd replace them first.

 

[1967coronet]

Ed, im not sure if you posted the age of the battery ?
If it has much age on it I would load test it.
Sometimes they can trick you.
That along with Kerns cable idea.

 

[Don Frelier]

Thanks for all the advice, everyone.
Update after some rudimentary diagnostics today:
a. fusible link is ok. When I connected it directly to battery, horn/lights/etc. all work fine, so inside
wiring is not suspect at this time.
b. Starter is intact, no damage visually of anything down there (I was half expecting to see busted stuff);
in fact, wiring, starter, bell, etc. all appear snug and undamaged.
Doesn't mean the starter is any good, I know...
c. when relay to solenoid wire is connected directly to battery, nothing happens at all. That ain't good...

Two immediate steps next in the process, once parts procured:
1)replace starter relay and 2)jump battery with known good one in the Ram.

This should all but rule out everything except the starter itself - and the nightmare it represents to replace,
what with headers and clutch linkage and all that in the way.
You know that drill - drain cooling system, take header loose, etc.
If I go that far, the battery to starter cable will also be replaced again out of caution as well; a new relay to
solenoid wire will also be fabricated and replace the original one, too.

It's not clear from your notes
Please explain item c. In more detail.

You ran a jumper from battery to the battery terminal on the starter relay and all interior power was restored?

Without the jumper there is no interior power?

Did you see my post #32?

 

[copper67sat]

Ed, im not sure if you posted the age of the battery ?
If it has much age on it I would load test it.
Sometimes they can trick you.
That along with Kerns cable idea.

I have experienced this several times - battery voltage shows good, battery charger indicates full charge, but battery fails when a load is applied.

Our '04 Durango 5.7 ate a battery every 2 yrs like clockwork. This was the typical symptom. Ran fine one day, wouldn't start the next day even though battery checked out ok, that is until a load was applied. Someone told me once that it's indicative of a shorted cell in the battery.

 

[Fran Blacker]

If you starter is bad run a mini starter if you don't already one. Might have to pull a plastic cover to get to another terminal to bolt wires to.

 

[Black_Sheep]

Thanks for all the advice, everyone.
Update after some rudimentary diagnostics today:
a. fusible link is ok. When I connected it directly to battery, horn/lights/etc. all work fine, so inside
wiring is not suspect at this time.
b. Starter is intact, no damage visually of anything down there (I was half expecting to see busted stuff);
in fact, wiring, starter, bell, etc. all appear snug and undamaged.
Doesn't mean the starter is any good, I know...
c. when relay to solenoid wire is connected directly to battery, nothing happens at all. That ain't good...

Two immediate steps next in the process, once parts procured:
1)replace starter relay and 2)jump battery with known good one in the Ram.

This should all but rule out everything except the starter itself - and the nightmare it represents to replace,
what with headers and clutch linkage and all that in the way.
You know that drill - drain cooling system, take header loose, etc.
If I go that far, the battery to starter cable will also be replaced again out of caution as well; a new relay to
solenoid wire will also be fabricated and replace the original one, too.

If running a jumper wire from the battery to the fusible link powers up the car, I suspect there’s a problem with your positive battery cable.

Do you have a voltmeter? Battery voltage should always be present at the large stud on the starter relay and the large stud on starter. If there’s no voltage at the large stud on the starter, it would explain why it failed to crank when you jumped power to the crank wire at the starter relay.

Before going through all the effort of tearing Fred apart for a starter replacement I would eliminate all other possibilities. Since you’re planning to replace the positive cable anyway, cut off the battery end and put on one of those phony repair ends for testing purposes. It might save you a lot of aggravation…

 

[moparedtn]

It's not clear from your notes
Please explain item c. In more detail.

You ran a jumper from battery to the battery terminal on the starter relay and all interior power was restored?

Without the jumper there is no interior power?

Did you see my post #32?

"c. when relay to solenoid wire is connected directly to battery, nothing happens at all. That ain't good..."
Exactly what I wrote, Don.
With all wires removed from the starter relay (and the relay removed from the car, for that matter) I took a pair
of vice grips and clamped the wire that goes from the relay down to the solenoid on the starter directly to the
positive battery lead coming from the battery (which is considered "good", remember - I was getting
full 12.6V at the relay from that lead).

I then connected the positive post on the battery to energize it and....nothing. Not a peep out of the starter, even
though its' dedicated "thick" cable coming directly from battery was (is) still bolted in place on the starter "big" terminal.

In other words, I bypassed both the relay and the ignition switch and sent juice directly down that solenoid lead to
the starter and nothing happened - which leads me to believe the starter has expired.

The fusible link to interior power is a separate thing all together (and is moot when bypassing the relay)....
But to again address that item, when I did the same thing to the fusible link (vice gripping it directly to the power
from the battery), I got horn and lights and such, leading me to believe the fusible link is ok.

 

[moparedtn]

Ok, it's clear some of you aren't reading what I'm posting - or I'm not describing things so that they may be easily
understood....
Tell you what, you're gonna make me make a video - and you know I hate that crap.

Let me replace the relay (which I've been meaning to do for years anyways) and get the truck pulled around, jumper
cables at the ready if necessary after that - if things haven't been fixed, I'll make a dang video.
Sigh...

 

[moparedtn]

If you starter is bad run a mini starter if you don't already one. Might have to pull a plastic cover to get to another terminal to bolt wires to.

If I need to replace it, it'll be another "Dakota" type starter, rebuilt Fran.
Money is a serious issue right now (and to be fair, this same junkyard Dakota starter has hung in here the whole
time I've owned Fred (13+ years now, 3 engines, etc.) so another one will probably outlast me for a lot less than
what a mini starter costs.

 

[moparedtn]

If running a jumper wire from the battery to the fusible link powers up the car, I suspect there’s a problem with your positive battery cable.

Do you have a voltmeter? Battery voltage should always be present at the large stud on the starter relay and the large stud on starter. If there’s no voltage at the large stud on the starter, it would explain why it failed to crank when you jumped power to the crank wire at the starter relay.

Before going through all the effort of tearing Fred apart for a starter replacement I would eliminate all other possibilities. Since you’re planning to replace the positive cable anyway, cut off the battery end and put on one of those phony repair ends for testing purposes. It might save you a lot of aggravation…

In the case of the fusible link test, the "jumper" is/was the positive cable coming from the battery to the relay.
Again, it's apparently fine as it reads the same 12.6 at the relay end as the battery itself shows.

Yes, I own a voltmeter (how I've been getting voltage readings that I've already reported). Yes, there's 12.6V at the relay.
I have not tested for 12V at the big post on the starter yet because of access (effing headers, hate them). I'll have to get under
the car for that one, but that seems prudent before buying a starter for sure.

 

[moparedtn]

The part of this whole thing that has me stumped is this happened all at once in front of the gas station -
AFTER a successful long, grinding typical starting procedure at the house 20 minutes prior, followed by
a nice drive around town.
All was normal - and then, when I hit the key to start the car upon leaving, I got a half second of what sounded
like starter activation and then the whole mess went dark, all at once - like someone pulled the plug on the whole
enchilada. Acted like someone took the battery loose all at once...

After that, I got a faint dim interior light but absolutely no response at twisting the ignition key.
I checked the battery and connections immediately. Sure enough, all was clean and tight at the battery, so I knew
it was time to call the rollback and get Fred home.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

I had the same issue happen a few times over a few years and each time it was a heat soaked mini-starter and not enough cranking power to overcome it. Sometimes if I took a tire iron and whacked the starter case, it would allow it to engage, sometimes not.

How I solved it after replacing the mini-starter for the 3rd time:
- higher amp battery (first a hemi size group 27 AGM - dang that thing was heavy!, now a lightweight Lithium Titanate)
- new larger 2/0 pos and neg battery cables with quality connectors - made to order, not off the auto parts rack

 

[hunt2elk]

If you sent 12 volts directly to the starter, bypassing the start relay, wouldn't that mean that the starter is junk? That's the way I see it anyway.

 

[copper67sat]

I might have missed it, but are you using a known good battery to conduct your tests? If it's the one that was in Fred when this started, I suggest trying that before changing the starter - it's certainly easier to swap the battery than the starter. As mentioned previously, a bad battery can fail under load even though the voltage reads fine. Your symptoms sound very similar to my experience with bad batteries. I apologize for the interruption if you tried that already.

 

[moparedtn]

If you sent 12 volts directly to the starter, bypassing the start relay, wouldn't that mean that the starter is junk? That's the way I see it anyway.

I might have missed it, but are you using a known good battery to conduct your tests? If it's the one that was in Fred when this started, I suggest trying that before changing the starter - it's certainly easier to swap the battery than the starter. As mentioned previously, a bad battery can fail under load even though the voltage reads fine. Your symptoms sound very similar to my experience with bad batteries. I apologize for the interruption if you tried that already.

UPDATE (and yes, there's a reason I'm specifically quoting these two gentlemen here, as you'll see...):
First off, my apologies to everyone. Seems all that transpired yesterday was a LIE!
Let me explain...
I go through everything again this morning, then head to town to fetch a new relay.
Whether it was to be the problem or not, I've meant to replace it for years anyways, so what the heck.

I obtain said new relay, then return home and immediately install its' shiny new arse on the car, then connect
the battery - and STILL, nothing. I had a horn for a moment, had headlights for a moment, then both quickly
faded off and still, no cranky cranky on the starter.
Step two of the plan - try to jump off my Ram. Failed, just a bit of clicking. STARTED Ram. Still....failed.


"Well", I think to myself - heck, go ahead and try the truck battery directly in the car, so I did.
When I went to hook up positive to it, BIG SPARK!!
Ut oh....and the whole process of elimination began again.
Quickly narrowed things down to whatever the short was being on the other side of the Fusible Link - this after
I had torn the whole wiring harness apart and removed the hot lead from battery to relay and the lead from relay
to starter solenoid when it occurred to me:
The big cable direct from battery to starter was still connected and did NOT spark when hooked up.
Ok, let's try bypassing everything and turning the engine over directly, which I did using the solenoid lead direct
to battery positive.
Imagine my relief when that 440 cranked over effortlessly!
Ok, now we're getting somewhere...

Now it became a process of elimination - what was shorting on the other side of the Fusible Link?
Thanks to the suggestion of @Dennis H , I went after the bulkhead connectors next - which both proved clean
and decidedly not burnt up, but also eliminated the wipers as a possibility.
(As I unhooked things, I'd return to my battery to Fusible Link jumper to check for sparks. If there were, move on...)
In quick succession, the horn circuit, the light circuit and the ignition switch were all disconnected, yet the spark
persisted...
Once the steering column harness had been disconnected and the spark remained, I decided it was time to consult
the FSM - which showed exaclty what I feared:
The circuit passes through the Fusible Link and then goes DIRECTLY to the charging gauge, i.e. the "amp meter".
From there, it's distributed all over the place in the interior of the car, like fusebox, ignition, everything else...
Some of which I'd already tried and disconnected.
So - next step is a familiar one: ELIMINATE the CHARGE GAUGE. Bypass that fire waiting to happen.
See if doing so gets rid of the spark at battery red.

CONCLUSION: The previous days' diagnostics wound up being faulty because I based them on a battery that,
turns out, had been getting drained (from the short) for the last month.
In reality, who knows HOW long this short has existed? As long as the car was being driven regularly, it may have
kept the battery charged up enough to start the car and without me disconnecting the battery, I'd never know about the
short at all - until, that is (God forbid) the dreaded Mopar alternator gauge fire occurred.

Next step is to get under the dash with a light and attempt to bypass the gauge. Reckon that will happen tomorrow
morning, before it gets hot...
The GOOD NEWS/Blessing though?
STARTER OK. STARTER WIRING OK. Homey doesn't have to remove header and all that crap! Yay.

Ain't wiring fun?

 

[Kern Dog]

I know a guy that had an ammeter go bad JUST before a road trip....
@1 Wild R/T knows what I'm referring to here.
The wire diagrams that I have refer to the wire junction as a "welded splice". The power comes through the bulkhead TO the ammeter, then out of the ammeter to the junction that splits to the ignition switch, headlight switch and the fuse panel. Some people just connect the ammeter input and output together and then tape it up. The ammeter will not move anymore but the car will run. There are plenty of people with spare parts if you care to swap in another ammeter OR you can rig up a cheap voltmeter and hang it under the dash.

 

[68BabyBlue]

I know a guy that had an ammeter go bad JUST before a road trip....
@1 Wild R/T knows what I'm referring to here.
The wire diagrams that I have refer to the wire junction as a "welded splice". The power comes through the bulkhead TO the ammeter, then out of the ammeter to the junction that splits to the ignition switch, headlight switch and the fuse panel. Some people just connect the ammeter input and output together and then tape it up. The ammeter will not move anymore but the car will run. There are plenty of people with spare parts if you care to swap in another ammeter OR you can rig up a cheap voltmeter and hang it under the dash.

This happened with Baby Blue during the 22 years between the two times I owned the car. It worked, so I left it alone. The car drove with no issues during my final eight years of ownership.

 

[threewood]

I know a guy that had an ammeter go bad JUST before a road trip....
@1 Wild R/T knows what I'm referring to here.
The wire diagrams that I have refer to the wire junction as a "welded splice". The power comes through the bulkhead TO the ammeter, then out of the ammeter to the junction that splits to the ignition switch, headlight switch and the fuse panel. Some people just connect the ammeter input and output together and then tape it up. The ammeter will not move anymore but the car will run. There are plenty of people with spare parts if you care to swap in another ammeter OR you can rig up a cheap voltmeter and hang it under the dash.

I wired mine like that, but installed a volt gauge in the cluster where the amp gauge goes. You run then run into a whole other possible set of problems wiggling around the 60 year old dash wiring getting it out, though.