1966 Charger, 71 RB440 4speed -> 6speed -> modern Hemi

[PAPA_E]

I have a 66 charger 440, 4 speed

Looking to swap in a t56 magnum first, while i hunt and plan a modern fuel injected hemi swap. It appears I would be buying this style bellhousing initally: https://www.jegs.com/i/Quick-Time-Bellhousing/698/RM-6077/10002/-1

Then once i have found my swap motor and gather the parts would be moving to this style housing: https://www.jegs.com/i/Quick-Time-Bellhousing/698/RM-8078/10002/-1

Are there any glaring issues beyond buying two different bellhousings? In my mind a T56 magnum will happily bolt up to both engines. I just dont want to end up in a position where i buy a t56 to fit somewhat oem style in the 66 to then learn I have to purchase another t56 to keep oem styling and bolt up to the modern hemi.

I am specifically looking at the T56 magnum 6speed, I spent years in the LS world and love that t56 and all its hydraulic clutch goodness. I am looking at the swap kit put together by a company who doesnt post a price for their kit.... but i hear its around 5-6K

Is there a better kit or company? I have the oem K member, disc brake conversion, i do plan to do a QA1 front suspension with the newer hemi swap when the time comes.

 

[Jerry Hall]

One of the appealing features of the 66 Charger is the interior. If I'm thinking of the same T56 transmission that you are, you will be making changes to the transmission cross member and the center floor pan. Console fitment then becomes a issue. If you have an original 66 Charger 440 4-speed car you will be cutting on a fairly rare car.
Here's my opinion. 6.1 conversion great, add a gear vendors to the 4-speed for the overdrive feature. This will require a modified driveshaft or a custom built one. A hydraulic clutch can be added to your current transmission. Then when you go to the Gen III Hemi all you need is the engine, electronics and an adapter plate with a new clutch setup. Much less expensive and no cutting up a rare car.

 

[PAPA_E]

One of the appealing features of the 66 Charger is the interior. If I'm thinking of the same T56 transmission that you are, you will be making changes to the transmission cross member and the center floor pan. Console fitment then becomes a issue. If you have an original 66 Charger 440 4-speed car you will be cutting on a fairly rare car.
Here's my opinion. 6.1 conversion great, add a gear vendors to the 4-speed for the overdrive feature. This will require a modified driveshaft or a custom built one. A hydraulic clutch can be added to your current transmission. Then when you go to the Gen III Hemi all you need is the engine, electronics and an adapter plate with a new clutch setup. Much less expensive and no cutting up a rare car.

Well it’s a factory 383, 4 speed car. Rear diff was swapped out, it’s a hemi 4 speed, and I was told it’s a HP RB440. The issue is I’m eyeing a hellcat engine and the 4speed would never survive. I drive my cars hard. Do burnouts, hit the track, bang the gears. It is why I like muscle cars. I was under the impression on a 4 speed car, with the correct cross member I wouldn’t be cutting anything and keeping the shifter in the correct spot.

It appears that SST or silver sport transmission the place I was looking titled their swap misleading. I looked at the installation guide and see that it infact is far from a “Perfect fit” as they call the kit. Even the Tko require cutting.

I suppose cutting the tunnel and holding onto it might be something. I mean part of why I bought a 66 is nobody seems to want or like them.

 

[Jerry Hall]

Well it’s a factory 383, 4 speed car. Rear diff was swapped out, it’s a hemi 4 speed, and I was told it’s a HP RB440. The issue is I’m eyeing a hellcat engine and the 4speed would never survive. I drive my cars hard. Do burnouts, hit the track, bang the gears. It is why I like muscle cars. I was under the impression on a 4 speed car, with the correct cross member I wouldn’t be cutting anything and keeping the shifter in the correct spot.

It appears that SST or silver sport transmission the place I was looking titled their swap misleading. I looked at the installation guide and see that it infact is far from a “Perfect fit” as they call the kit. Even the Tko require cutting.

I suppose cutting the tunnel and holding onto it might be something. I mean part of why I bought a 66 is nobody seems to want or like them.

66-67 Chargers are less expensive for sure, but the restoration costs are equal, except for the interior which is much more expensive. I have a 67 Satellite with a 5.7 Hemi and TKO 5 speed and the tunnel wasn't cut other than a hole for the shifter, but one has to be a contortionist to fill it. As far as strength it's hard to beat a 18 spline Hemi 4-speed. I have never seen a comparison between the two, so I can't relate to this. Remember all I said was my opinion and just the way I would approach it. I also have a 66 Satellite with a 6.1 hooked to an original small block 727, but I had it done to supposedly support 600 HP. A gear vendors is next for it, and they are supposed to hold up to 2500 HP. Again my opinion is that a 700 HP hell cat Gen III engine isn't going to destroy that 4-speed. I have been wrong before maybe someone has on hand experience that can chime in.

 

[PAPA_E]

66-67 Chargers are less expensive for sure, but the restoration costs are equal, except for the interior which is much more expensive. I have a 67 Satellite with a 5.7 Hemi and TKO 5 speed and the tunnel wasn't cut other than a hole for the shifter, but one has to be a contortionist to fill it. As far as strength it's hard to beat a 18 spline Hemi 4-speed. I have never seen a comparison between the two, so I can't relate to this. Remember all I said was my opinion and just the way I would approach it. I also have a 66 Satellite with a 6.1 hooked to an original small block 727, but I had it done to supposedly support 600 HP. A gear vendors is next for it, and they are supposed to hold up to 2500 HP. Again my opinion is that a 700 HP hell cat Gen III engine isn't going to destroy that 4-speed. I have been wrong before maybe someone has on hand experience that can chime in.

Well, I was wanting overdrive, I called a 4 speed builder and they said the 4 speeds are good for 450hp. Above that it’s borrowed time. I’m all for not hacking the car apart as it is now clear I would probably need too.

My issue is I’d like to be able to cruise at highway speeds, and not always worry it’s gonna break. It’s why over the years I start with brakes, rear, trans. Because fast feels pretty slow on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck.

I was specifically told by a vender, 355 rear and a stock 440 cu with heads and a cam and intake would destroy a overdrive unit 4 speed. Possibly looked at the wrong vendor. I’m really just going off of word of mouth.

I saw a few hemi a833 fourspeeds that we’re listed as 4 speed overdrive and were 1/3 or more less than a t56 swap.... if it can cruise around 70/80 mph without too much issue I’d happily take that. I was simply told that was a no go.

I promise I’m on here for help and insight. I know t56s and chevys I’m not used to having to cut a car apart to fit it. Or if I am it’s a 4th gen fbody auto and I’m really doing it a favor.

 

[PAPA_E]

Also the comment about nobody seeming to want the 1st gens... that wasn’t shade or looking for a bargain. I like to be different. That’s all.

it’s part of why I looked at getting a mopar cause the lack of easy access to aftermarket parts almost kept me on the Chevy/Pontiac team.

 

[Photon440]

Well it’s a factory 383, 4 speed car. Rear diff was swapped out, it’s a hemi 4 speed, and I was told it’s a HP RB440. The issue is I’m eyeing a hellcat engine and the 4speed would never survive. I drive my cars hard. Do burnouts, hit the track, bang the gears. It is why I like muscle cars. I was under the impression on a 4 speed car, with the correct cross member I wouldn’t be cutting anything and keeping the shifter in the correct spot.

It appears that SST or silver sport transmission the place I was looking titled their swap misleading. I looked at the installation guide and see that it infact is far from a “Perfect fit” as they call the kit. Even the Tko require cutting.

I suppose cutting the tunnel and holding onto it might be something. I mean part of why I bought a 66 is nobody seems to want or like them.

The hemi versions of the A-883 were massively strong, it would take plenty to kill it. But, if you're as aggressive as you suggest in your driving, then realize that the T-56 wasn't the end-all either. Most of the applications were lower torque ratings, the strongest were in Vipers. But even these didn't cut the mustard when the Viper engines got a boost in 2008. It's the TR6060 that was used after that, and is the factory choice for new Hellcat powered cars.

 

[Jerry Hall]

Also the comment about nobody seeming to want the 1st gens... that wasn’t shade or looking for a bargain. I like to be different. That’s all.

it’s part of why I looked at getting a mopar cause the lack of easy access to aftermarket parts almost kept me on the Chevy/Pontiac team.

Everybody wants to call a Mopar 4-speed a Hemi 4-speed. There is a big difference in a 23 spline 4-speed and the heavy duty 18 spline 4-speed that were behind all Hemi's and HP 440's from 66-71. A 23 spline 4-speed will go for about a third of a 18 spline and the later overdrive units less than that. The worst I have ever done to a Mopar 4-speed is break the first/second shift fork and that was a 23 spline unit behind an approximately 600 HP engine. It was more than likely my fault too. I to have run and or abused them with clutchless shifts at high rpms, side stepping the clutch at 4-5 thousand rpms. I have twisted drive shafts, spread yokes, broken axles, ripped out to many clutches to count, but only one transmission failure. I have been a Mopar man since my first new car and have stuck with them because of this reliability. Sure it costs more to build a Mopar but you sure don't have to do it as often. I think the 66-71 street Hemi's were all rated 425 hp and close to 500 ft.lbs torque from the factory and most will agree they were underrated. Go out and treat a hellcat with a 6 speed like that and you will break something there too. I personally would trust the build that I described in my first post and drive the crap out of it. Like I said I could be wrong, but call Brewers or Passon and get opinions from them. Herb Mccandless Mr. 4-speed was driving low 10 second Hemi's in the day and making the name he has today. Next time I see him I will have to remember to ask him how many 4-speeds he broke. I have had a pretty good run on 4-speeds in the last 55 years by only breaking one. Some will call it luck, but I say Chrysler build some of the toughest drivetrains in the business. So much for my commercial.

 

[PAPA_E]

The hemi versions of the A-883 were massively strong, it would take plenty to kill it. But, if you're as aggressive as you suggest in your driving, then realize that the T-56 wasn't the end-all either. Most of the applications were lower torque ratings, the strongest were in Vipers. But even these didn't cut the mustard when the Viper engines got a boost in 2008. It's the TR6060 that was used after that, and is the factory choice for new Hellcat powered cars.

I just wrote t56 as I had made mention I was looking at t56 magnums. I just didn’t want to write magnum every time. I have however hammered plenty a t56. Like 98-02 fbody t56, nitrous, built ls1 and ls2s boost and nitrous with decent results. I figured a dodge warranty vehicle running a tr6060 which is basically a mass produced magnum more or less would be just fine. The magnums have the slip yoke that we need and thus why I wasn’t looking to do a tr6060.

 

[PAPA_E]

Everybody wants to call a Mopar 4-speed a Hemi 4-speed. There is a big difference in a 23 spline 4-speed and the heavy duty 18 spline 4-speed that were behind all Hemi's and HP 440's from 66-71. A 23 spline 4-speed will go for about a third of a 18 spline and the later overdrive units less than that. The worst I have ever done to a Mopar 4-speed is break the first/second shift fork and that was a 23 spline unit behind an approximately 600 HP engine. It was more than likely my fault too. I to have run and or abused them with clutchless shifts at high rpms, side stepping the clutch at 4-5 thousand rpms. I have twisted drive shafts, spread yokes, broken axles, ripped out to many clutches to count, but only one transmission failure. I have been a Mopar man since my first new car and have stuck with them because of this reliability. Sure it costs more to build a Mopar but you sure don't have to do it as often. I think the 66-71 street Hemi's were all rated 425 hp and close to 500 ft.lbs torque from the factory and most will agree they were underrated. Go out and treat a hellcat with a 6 speed like that and you will break something there too. I personally would trust the build that I described in my first post and drive the crap out of it. Like I said I could be wrong, but call Brewers or Passon and get opinions from them. Herb Mccandless Mr. 4-speed was driving low 10 second Hemi's in the day and making the name he has today. Next time I see him I will have to remember to ask him how many 4-speeds he broke. I have had a pretty good run on 4-speeds in the last 55 years by only breaking one. Some will call it luck, but I say Chrysler build some of the toughest drivetrains in the business. So much for my commercial.

brewers told me what I said, that the 4 speeds wouldn’t handle a hellcat engine, and a mild built 440 would kill an overdrive unit one. I didn’t name them as I don’t know the sponsor rules etc etc. Trust me if leaving a 4 speed in it will last to that degree forget the t56 I was just told it wouldn’t. Overdrive isn’t absolutely required but I know it will make my life a lot easier. I live in Maryland now and plan to move back to Florida. Here’s one thing but Florida... 70mph is the highway and I found myself often cruising with traffic around 80/85mph.

 

[Jerry Hall]

brewers told me what I said, that the 4 speeds wouldn’t handle a hellcat engine, and a mild built 440 would kill an overdrive unit one. I didn’t name them as I don’t know the sponsor rules etc etc. Trust me if leaving a 4 speed in it will last to that degree forget the t56 I was just told it wouldn’t. Overdrive isn’t absolutely required but I know it will make my life a lot easier. I live in Maryland now and plan to move back to Florida. Here’s one thing but Florida... 70mph is the highway and I found myself often cruising with traffic around 80/85mph.

Nobody in Maryland drives the speed limit, I did some government work for all the health departments in Maryland some years ago and have traveled the whole state. I think I have been on every 95 they have up there. It was a great place to visit.
I don't know who you talked to at Brewers, but I think much more of the Hemi 4-speeds than that. Some people can tear up an anvil with a rubber hammer. To keep up with traffic up there overdrive would be desirable and I would look into the Gear Vendors conversion on a Hemi 4-speed. That in my opinion would be as close to bullet proof as it comes. I think you're going to break something else other than that transmission setup. In the long run, its your money, your car, so I'm just adding my opinion. Get plenty more and most of all have fun doing it. Best of luck with your choices.

 

[PAPA_E]

Nobody in Maryland drives the speed limit, I did some government work for all the health departments in Maryland some years ago and have traveled the whole state. I think I have been on every 95 they have up there. It was a great place to visit.
I don't know who you talked to at Brewers, but I think much more of the Hemi 4-speeds than that. Some people can tear up an anvil with a rubber hammer. To keep up with traffic up there overdrive would be desirable and I would look into the Gear Vendors conversion on a Hemi 4-speed. That in my opinion would be as close to bullet proof as it comes. I think you're going to break something else other than that transmission setup. In the long run, its your money, your car, so I'm just adding my opinion. Get plenty more and most of all have fun doing it. Best of luck with your choices.

I genuinely appreciate your opinion. Not cutting the structural support of the car and floor is obviously a better idea. So I spoke with an older sounding man on the phone there. He specifically said their 4 speeds and gear vendors would never hold up.

which genuinely made me wonder if all the big or basically above stock guys were simply all running autos or what.

ive been here a year(Maryland) and find that either the cops are posted up all along the roads or two locals are both doing 54mph side by side .... so driving up to Waldorf or DC is always a exercise in patiences.

I looked at Passon and 3.55 with their overdrive setup makes 75mph much more realistic. Roughly 2500rpms where I think I’m currently at 3300rpms. I mean my Zo6 setup for standing mile was a joy on the highways but the Charger is definitely not even remotely the same project or goal.

I think I’ll be contacting passon, last I spoke with brewers they were out till September/October timeframe

 

[Jerry Hall]

I genuinely appreciate your opinion. Not cutting the structural support of the car and floor is obviously a better idea. So I spoke with an older sounding man on the phone there. He specifically said their 4 speeds and gear vendors would never hold up.

which genuinely made me wonder if all the big or basically above stock guys were simply all running autos or what.

ive been here a year(Maryland) and find that either the cops are posted up all along the roads or two locals are both doing 54mph side by side .... so driving up to Waldorf or DC is always a exercise in patiences.

I looked at Passon and 3.55 with their overdrive setup makes 75mph much more realistic. Roughly 2500rpms where I think I’m currently at 3300rpms. I mean my Zo6 setup for standing mile was a joy on the highways but the Charger is definitely not even remotely the same project or goal.

I think I’ll be contacting passon, last I spoke with brewers they were out till September/October timeframe

I truly see your point and 700 ft.lbs. torque is a large increase over the 500 that these old transmissions were behind. I just can't see Brewers saying that 450 ft.lbs is all a Hemi 4-speed can handle. Also most of your old school drag racers do run automatics. I may be to much old school, but have always been a four speed person. Through the years I have never found the 4-speed to be the weakest link. I realize that with today's better clutches, axles, and driveline components, that the weakest link is what is going to break. It very well could be the transmission. When I was spending time on the drag strip, automatics got a blanket for possible explosions, 4-speeds used scatter shields for clutch explosions and driveshaft loops for broken U joints. No one to my knowledge put a blanket around a 4-speed. Like I said earlier I may have been just lucky or as I say blessed, but I have more faith in these old transmissions than most. I look forward to seeing where you go with your project and i won't try to interfere with your choices, it's your hard earned money. Thanks for listening.

 

[Jerry Hall]

The hemi versions of the A-883 were massively strong, it would take plenty to kill it. But, if you're as aggressive as you suggest in your driving, then realize that the T-56 wasn't the end-all either. Most of the applications were lower torque ratings, the strongest were in Vipers. But even these didn't cut the mustard when the Viper engines got a boost in 2008. It's the TR6060 that was used after that, and is the factory choice for new Hellcat powered cars.

I'm sorry I guess I lied in one of my posts by saying I have only damaged one transmission. That is true for a 4-speed, but my 96 Viper GTS did get a new 6-speed under warranty. I was at a Viper event at the road course in Savannah, GA. I was coming down the front straightaway at approximately 165, and was braking and downshifting from 5th to 4th for turn 1. 90 was about tops for turn one. The downshift resulted in the loss of 4th gear and a off track experience. That put me in the trailer for the rest of the weekend.