440 deck height

[rickseeman]

You have the wrong parts. Every 512 kit for a 440 on the website is .010"-.015" in the hole. (I've built these before.) Your block is not .070" too tall. I'm sure they will be glad to send you the correct parts.

 

[PRHeads]

I’ve seen many 440 blocks that had the giant chamfer at the top of the bores. Usually on later blocks.
The decks were always within the normal range for production parts.
It’s not necessarily an indicator of a deck that’s way out of spec.

Sure, it’s not “impossible” your block is .070” too tall.
It’s just highly improbable.

Just check the stroke with the tail end of a caliper.
If it’s within a few thou of 4.250”, my guess would be the rods are too short.

Like I said earlier, you’re taking it apart anyway, so the issue will reveal itself.
But check the stroke now while it’s easy.

 

[PRHeads]

After looking at the Icon catalog, I’m going to say the engine has the wrong pistons in it.
They have a piston for the 4.375” stroke that has a C/H of 1.423”, which would put them .077” down the hole if used with a 4.25” stroke in a block that’s 10.725”.

That’s my(new) guess as to where the problem lies.

 

[RemCharger]

Good idea to check headgasket overhang as well.

 

[gkent]

That stuff inyour photo looks "used" .

 

[ksurfer2]

That stuff inyour photo looks "used" .

It is. current set up has been in the car for 3 years.

 

[ksurfer2]

After looking at the Icon catalog, I’m going to say the engine has the wrong pistons in it.
They have a piston for the 4.375” stroke that has a C/H of 1.423”, which would put them .077” down the hole if used with a 4.25” stroke in a block that’s 10.725”.

That’s my(new) guess as to where the problem lies.

Attached is the build sheet from the machine shop that put together the motor a couple years ago. I highlighted the part number for the piston. According to the 440 source website,this is the correct piston. I guess it is possible that the wrong piston was sent and installed this is the correct piston. I guess it is possible that the wrong piston was sent and
installed.

 

[PRHeads]

Are you asking me which is more possible……..that a set of pistons were boxed wrong, and that wasn’t caught by the same machine shop that assembled the short block and didn’t catch that the pistons were down the hole .080”?
Or, that you have a unicorn block that’s .070” taller than spec?

Based on the number of parts that were boxed wrong that I’ve seen thru the years……….I’m def going with the “wrong pistons” option.

But, we can speculate all day.
The answer will be revealed when it comes apart.

Btw, felpro 1009 head gaskets are a big red flag on a block with the big chamfer.

This is probably a coincidence, but……..

The first line of the parts listed ends in “K829”.
The Icon number for the 1.423” C/H flat top pistons is……. 829.

 

[Cranky]

Here is a close up photo of the piston (at TDC) in the bore. The taper at the top of the bore is very noticeable as is the depth of the piston in the bore.View attachment 2016325

Like Mr. Porter mentioned, that 'taper' is a chamfer. Cylinder taper is from ring wear. If you notice a gap between the top of the piston, that's normal as the head of the piston has a slightly smaller diameter than the 'barrel' of the piston.

 

[rickseeman]

Isn't that an Eagle crank for 6.80" rods?

 

[rickseeman]

2.125+7.1+1.423=10.648 10.725-10.648= .077" down in the hole PR heads is the man

 

[PRHeads]

I know “if it were me”, I’d be hoping it was a case of the pistons being wrong.
The published weights for the 1.485” pistons vs the 1.423” pistons are only 13g apart.

That’s well within my comfort zone for a swap without a rebalance.
In other words, minimal disassembly required.
Front of the engine doesn’t even need to be touched.

To deck the block requires a complete disassembly, a trip to the machine shop, machining, cleaning, etc……. Then complete reassembly.

 

[33 IMP]

I know “if it were me”, I’d be hoping it was a case of the pistons being wrong.
The published weights for the 1.485” pistons vs the 1.423” pistons are only 13g apart.

That’s well within my comfort zone for a swap without a rebalance.
In other words, minimal disassembly required.
Front of the engine doesn’t even need to be touched.

To deck the block requires a complete disassembly, a trip to the machine shop, machining, cleaning, etc……. Then complete reassembly.

.... and you WILL get a performance increase with a couple more points of compression!
And now you will need to use the race gas that you were using.... and probably didn't need....

 

[BSB67]

A bit more info at the beginning would have been helpful.

Did you have this motor built, or someone else?

The bill you posted begs a bunch of questions too.

What heads? Strange that the bill says “valve job” for an NSS motor. And “recondition rods”. New rod bolts too. We’re they new?

What is the date on the invoice?

Seems like there is so much more to this story. Are you sure that invoice is for your motor?

 

[ksurfer2]

A bit more info at the beginning would have been helpful.

Did you have this motor built, or someone else?

The bill you posted begs a bunch of questions too.

What heads? Strange that the bill says “valve job” for an NSS motor. And “recondition rods”. New rod bolts too. We’re they new?

What is the date on the invoice?

Seems like there is so much more to this story. Are you sure that invoice is for your motor?

there is not too much more to the story. I purchased the car about 6 years ago with the motor already built. It had the 440 source 512 kit, edelbrock victor heads, and a cross ram intake. I raced it in NMCA events, but wanted to go faster. I made some changes but it didn't get me where I wanted to be, so it went to the machine shop for a refresh including new pistons to increase the compression. This was about 3 years ago. Yes, the invoice attached is for the work done to the motor.

Since the rebuild, I didn't feel the motor lived up to the potential that should have been there. I finally decided to take the top end apart and start checking on things and that led to this thread.

 

[33 IMP]

there is not too much more to the story. I purchased the car about 6 years ago with the motor already built. It had the 440 source 512 kit, edelbrock victor heads, and a cross ram intake. I raced it in NMCA events, but wanted to go faster. I made some changes but it didn't get me where I wanted to be, so it went to the machine shop for a refresh including new pistons to increase the compression. This was about 3 years ago. Yes, the invoice attached is for the work done to the motor.

Since the rebuild, I didn't feel the motor lived up to the potential that should have been there. I finally decided to take the top end apart and start checking on things and that led to this thread.

Thanks for the clarification.
I'm not sure I'd trust that engine shop, if you told them you wanted 12.5, and they shipped it .080 in the hole.

 

[33 IMP]

If I remember right, weren't you struggling to get into the tens with your car? (NO offense meant, if my memory is fawlty.) [ Fawlty towers, funny show!]
I'm guessing the 60 year old design crossram isn't helping.
When I replaced my 850dp/tm7 combo with a crossram with two 750 competition carter's, my car picked up.....

NOTHING.

Further tuning would have probably helped, and the crossram definitely put eyes on the car, it just didn't go any faster or quicker.

 

[dvw]

Please excuse my very crude diagram. I am trying to wrap my head around where the issue ultimately lies either with the block or with the crank/rod/piston. In this diagram, the piston (blue), is at TDC, the bore begins a very pronounced taper above the piston to deck height. If the issue is with the crank stroke, rod length, or compression height of the piston, the top of the piston would no longer be tight in the bore as it would now be in the tapered area of the cylinder. That doesn't seem like it would be correct, or am I mistaken?

That leaves deck height as the issue. As Prostocktom mentioned decking the block would be a viable option with some other necessary work to the intake/heads. Wouldn't this also cause an issue with valley pan fitment. One way or another, the motor is coming out and coming apart.

View attachment 2016293

First thing to do if it's assembled is measure the stroke. Really easy you could even use a ruler. It's eother 4.250" or 4.150". If the stroke is correct my bet is the rod isn't .080" off. But there could be a combination of deck height and/or compression distance being incorrect.
Doug

 

[RemCharger]

If I remember right, weren't you struggling to get into the tens with your car? (NO offense meant, if my memory is fawlty.) [ Fawlty towers, funny show!]
I'm guessing the 60 year old design crossram isn't helping.
When I replaced my 850dp/tm7 combo with a crossram with two 750 competition carter's, my car picked up.....

NOTHING.

Further tuning would have probably helped, and the crossram definitely put eyes on the car, it just didn't go any faster or quicker.

I think you're forced to run that intake in that class.