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440 Runs Hot.

MoParFish

Big Mike
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2:37 PM
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Jan 17, 2009
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Location
Central California
Hi All,

Seems this has all been covered but I guess I just need to vent. If a part breaks you just bolt a new one on but this long drawn out heating problem diagnosing stuff drives me nuts! I can't seem to get this 440 to cool. It climbs to 245 after about 20 minutes of mixed driving.

64 Polara 440 .40 over, forged flat tops, .509 purple shaft, Stage 5 iron heads

-Stock radiator with New 4 row 22x17 core. (from what I read this may be the problem with too many rows or fins)

-2 10 inch electric fans. They were attached without shroud. Made a full aluminum shroud for them and made little difference.

-Separate trans cooler. No trans fluid through radiator.

-Same with or without thermostat. Just overheats sooner with.

-New 13lb cap. 50-50 mix coolant.

-Timing 8 deg static

-was sucking bottom hose shut when revving. Installed spring but no change.

-Mechanical gauge in top of wp housing so am pretty sure its accurate. Plus boils when I shut it off.

-fans are definitely pulling very hot air through the rad maybe just not enough.

Thinking of going back to the basics with mechanical fan just kinda hard to find a shroud for these cars. Or, possibly an aluminum radiator. Don't mind spending money to fix the problem just don't want to throw money at it.

P.S. What gets me is didn't some cars come stock with no shroud? I guess there's something to be said for stock.
 
Yup. A lot of cars came without shrouds, especially cars with the 22" (24") radiator. The 69 Bee I used to own would never run hot. It had a recored 22", shroud, fan clutch, 180* stat, and never ever ran over 180*. Was a 9.9:1 383 with a M.P. cam and automatic running through the radiator only.

The new core was NOT an ultra thick core. It was a 3 row, and had the same as factory fin count.

As far as I'm concerned this is THE key to keeping one cool

Oh...my Duster ran hot too. So I got a factory radiator, shroud, fan and clutch and now it runs at 180 rather than the 220 it had been.
 
Assuming that your timing (static and advanced) is spot on, and your not running too lean, I'd try to get back towards what Ma Mopar felt was best. I'm not a big fan ( no pun intended) of aftermarket electric fans and all. MP aluminum water pump, MP viscous fan, definately a shroud, and a good radiator ( you may want to get it flow tested just to be sure, a good radiator shop knows the right #'s) and the proper pulleys ( you don't want to slow down the pump too much or have it spin too fast ) with a MP chrome water neck ( it's got to flow un-impeded too), and a good brass thermostat should do the trick.If it's sucking the lower hose shut then maybe the pump is not spinning at the right speed or the coolant flow is impeded somewhere along the way. Good Luck!
 
We have a good white paper posted some place on this web site that has many details about cooling. You may want to do a search or someone may remember its location. As for the electric fans, i run a pair from a late model 6 cyl with the built in shroud and they keep my bigblock cool. Not knowing a lot about your combo it is hard to give an easy answer, dig up that white paper it has various reasons that would cause you to run hot. It can help step you through the problem instead of guessing. From the info you have given it sound like you have good equipment, your just overlooking something. Don't toss what you have at this point and go back to the old style. It may be a lot of cost for nothing.

Hey 69 Runner, do you remember the location of that cooling theroy paper? It seems like we run into this a lot. Dan
 
Found this one again, GooD Luck!!

Engine cooling 101

Copied this from Mopar Style Web site, a good white paper.

Overheating-boring white paper

I have been overrun with calls from people about overheating, so I put some thoughts down- maybe it will help somebody- it's on the fugly racing site, but here;s a copy:
It's about 186 degrees everywhere and I'm getting calls/noticing posts on cooling problems, so this is to take a stab at some helpful hints.....as always I am not responsible for my demented sense of humor or anybody failing to stop the engine to change the fanbelt or otherwise modifying their physical or mental condition...
First off, you DO want a certain amount of heat in your engine-technically, from a strictly book position, you want to run it as hot as possible without damage. Obviously there are limits and in particular, we generally figure the damage point to be 252F. That said, a good operating range is between 175-230 degrees F. But you say, mine runs better when it's dead cold....well maybe it does, however that would point to the engine being tuned improperly- typically the carb being too lean.
NEVER EVER hammer on an engine until you have at least 150 degree temp...WHY? well because the parts inside to include bearing clearances, piston to cylinder clearance and head gasket crush change as they warm up- if you go blasting thru the neighborhood at 75 degrees engine temp, you invite piston skirt problems, oil circulation issues and if there's enough compression, blown head gaskets. I like to see no more than 220-230F running temp. Preferably a little lower, because you have no real safety zone otherwise. Don't expect you roller cam 14/71 blown big block to run at 165 degrees- the more power you make, the more heat there is to disapate.Now on to some specific hints:
If it always ran fine and now all the sudden it's too hot then before doing anything else, check the most likely culprits:
RADIATOR CAP SHOT-take it off and observe the rubber gasket. If it looks like it's not touching anything when it's installed, or the rubber ring doesn't exist, or it's all cracked and nasty-replace it. Many times this is all it takes- if there is no pressure developing, the coolant will boil earlier than normal , turn to steam and not cool effectively.
LOOSE HOSE CONNECTIONS- look for signs of coolant dribbling down the hoses or stains- again loss of pressure.
LOOSE fanbelt-Typically will squeal, but not always- if it slips, the water pump is not spinning properly
OTHER LEAKS=self explanatory////Ok you say whaddaboutusguys that just built it and itnoworky........
First off narrow down the problem- does it run hot (1) ONLY AT IDLE? (2) ONLY AT HIGHWAY SPEED? (3) ALL THE TIME?
If its (1) ONLY AT IDLE, you more than likely have a fan problem, as that is basically the only thing moving the air across the radiator at that point.Logic here is once the car is moving the air flowing thru the grill is keeping you cool. If it's a clutch fan, spin it by hand (WITH THE ENGINE OFF) and note how much it turns before it stops- more than a turn or so and it's time to buy a new one ...not that?- do you have a fan shroud and is the fan properly located in it?
The shroud is designed to force the air to follow a path thru the radiator-cool air from the front across the radiator-without one, you are likely just stirring up the hot air underhood and wasting a large part of the fans ability to cool. The fan should be located +/- about 1" from centered in the rear opening-too far back and you lose the effect, too far forward and you create negative vortexes and actually "stall" the airflow. While on the fan subject, a high quality clutch fan is usually your best bet as it somewhat freewheels at high speed saving power and self destruction.
Another one of my favorites is the notion of taking off the mechanical fan in favor of an electric one. While there are cases (no space engine swaps) where this may be the only option, there is usually no good reason for this on the street in my opinion.Why would I say that? Well, you are giving yourself another reason to be dead on the side of the road- if the engine is running, a mechanical fan is turning- an electric one may give up at any time, leaving you with no low speed cooling. But, you say , I am saving HP- not necessarily. Nothing is for free- in the case of a drag car with no alternator or a cut off, yea, but on a street car, the increased load is directly on the alternator which in turn takes more HP to spin, thereby negating most or all of your perceived gain. IF you must use that method, get a good high cfm fan=the little 69;95 jobs don't move enough ait to cool a lawnmower.
If it's not the fan, did you install a fancy big water pump pulley to save HP? If so, take it off and try your stock one-many times the reduced speed caused by these pulleys not only slows the fan down but also slows the water pump speed so that normal water flow becomes something akin to a lazy snail moving thru the engine causing steam pockets etc...Same thing goes for the big alternator pulley that causes your charge guage to go negative at idle...
Improper base timing- if you are not getting enough total timing, the engine will tend to run hot as much of the power is going right out the exhaust- the burn cycle initiates and therefor ends late- extreme cases can find the fuel mix still burning strong going out the exhaust, but at the very least you need more throttle for any given speed, causing the engine to work harder.
If it's not any of these, see section (3)
IF it's (2) ONLY AT SPEED, it sometimes gets more complicated...Easy things first:
Collapsing lower radiator hose- there should be a spring inside the lower hose to keep the waterpump from squeezing it flat at speed- if your lower hose is the slightest bit mushy and there's no spring, this is a good starting point-you can sometimes make a coil tightly around the outside of the hose with a coat hangar ( or the inside if you sare inclined) to test this- if it's better or fixes it, buy a hose with the spring or buy the proper one and one of the flexible hoses to steal the spring out of.
No Thermostat- very common in the South and many times causes the coolant to flow too quickly at speed , not allowing time enough to cool in the radiator- you don't have to buy one of the fancy 15 dollar restricters- simply grab one of your junk thermostats or stand in front of the parts store and beg for somebodies old one- snip the u shaped piece off and remove the guts-now install the ring in place of the thermostat.While on the subject, thermostats are generally a good idea especially in climates where there are a lot of days under 80F- they bring the engine to temp quicker.
Improper max timing- if you are not getting enough total timing, the engine will tend to run hot as much of the power is going right out the exhaust- the burn cycle initiates and therefor ends late- extreme cases can find the fuel mix still burning strong going out the exhaust, but at the very least you need more throttle for any given speed, causing the engine to work harder.If all else is fine,and you have your vacuum advance disconnected, try rehooking it and see if your problem disappears-If you built a 18:1 iron head motor go buy some decent fuel and set your timing where it belongs. If you need much less than 30-32 degrees on a Mopar to keep it from detonating, you need better fuel. Overadvancing will cause issues also , but will generally result in audible knocking.
Radiator too small- this will generally fall in number (3), but a radiator right on the edge may cause high speed only issues.
On Automatic cars, too much stall speed- If your stall speed is much above your cruise RPM, the tansmission will overheat and cuase the radiator to do more work-this will also burn up your trans.
Too small/smashed/plugged up exhaust- causes the engine to work much harder to maintain speed.Usually also results in poor performance,
Dragging brakes-same effect as above.

Mixture too lean- check your plugs after a medium range cruise (try not to idle much at the end)- if they are white or burnt looking, jet up 2-4 sizes and see what happens.
IF it's (3) ALL THE TIME- is your thermostat opening? see if the upper and lower hoses are roughly the same temp-or leave the cap off when cold (DON"T YANK IT OFF WHEN HOT) and watch to see if it circulates when it warms up. IF not, replace the thermostat (don't leave it out or throw it away-see number 2 for explanation)
Is your radiator too small? if you are using the one out of grampas Neon in your Hemi Roadrunner, it probably isn't going to work.
Is the water flowing too fast? If you took the thermostat out completely, this is possible-see (2) for possible fix
Does the front of your radiator resemble a graveyard for various flying objects? If it's full of bugs and mud, it won't cool-spray out the fins and see what happens.
Did you overbore the engine more than .040? Many times overboring .060 or bigger creates cooling problems due to inadequate heat transfer- thos 3 extra cubes are gonna cost you big bucks for a massive cooling system.
Overall Lean condition-see 1 and 2 for explanation
Weak spark- if you have a weak spark, the engine will burn erratically and can overheat as a result.
Clogged up radiator- if it came stock in your 1956 Belvedere it probably needs rodded out or re cored
Many other things can cause constant overheating such as high internal friction (inadequate clearances etc) but that will usually result in a poor running engine. Also if you are often mistaken for the mosquito fogger, your engine is laboring to burn the oil and probably won't cool properly.I am sure I've missed some important one, but maybe this will solve some problems.....
__________________
www.diamondbackengines.com Yes we're still open
 
Dantrap, maybe you could share the combo of parts that's working for you such as which water pump, radiator, etc.. and anything else relevant. This might help us. As you stated, maybe we can figure out a quick and easy fix. (I do tend to go a bit overboard and want to "cherry out" whole systems i.e. fuel,cooling, electrical, etc.):yes:
 
Wow, thanks for the great info. Now I have a few more things to check before pulling all my hair out. :yes:
 
Hi Sumbit, i am using basic stuff nothing fancy. I have a custom 2 row with 1 inch tubes cross flow radiator, a "GM" twin electric Fan from a 3.8liter V6, Mopar Perf alum housing and pump with a 170 degree stat and 50/50 mix of standard Peak & distilled water. i know the cross flow and GM fans are not "mopar cool" but the sure work good. I switch the fans manually but you can add a thermal switch if you like. I run both fans all the time once the engine temp is over 160f. I will post a picture when i get some time this weekend.

If i was to redo my system I would use a " Wizard Alum. radiator ." (956 copy) with the twin electric fans from a 2000 chrysler 300C. My friend uses this setup in his 528 w/727 Challenger and it runs cool as can be. The WizARD PRODUCTS 956 ALUM. copy is a direct bolt in and one of the best i have seen to date. Thermal transfer for cooling is very high, even for big C.i.d. and hi power cars. Check this system out if your looking for a new 1st class system, he sells the complete setup. Dantrap
 
I didn't know you could get 170 degree stat.Where did you buy it at?
 
Hey 69GTX, i believe the 170 stat is a Gates product, not sure where i purchased it from. You should be able to find one, i used to run a 160 but this combo runs better a little hotter. I believe the coolant themp. is 10 to 15 degrees hotter than what is on the stat.
Good luck!
 
The stat you want to run is a Robert Shaw or the Mr. Gasket "high performance"one. They are the closest to what was O.E. in our cars. These cheapass stats they sell aren't worth spit.
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/ca...stat&fromWhere=&searchText=&_requestid=791646


8.jpg
 
I have a Mr.Gasket already 160.I had just never seen or heard about a 170.Filing the info back in the old brain for later
 
I had a similar problem with a mild 440 it was the demon carby, it was running on the idle circuit.Apparently its a tuning problem with demons(thats why their cheaper) it takes a good carb man to set them up right.Car temp dropped from 195 to 165.
 
a leaking head gasket (ever so slightly) or the exhaust header bolts that go through into the water jacket can leak also. This can cause Heat problems as well. I was also just recently informed that the edelbrock aluminum heads have SMALLER internal cooling passages then the stock 906 heads.
HTH
Bob
 
Yup, Damon knows his stuff....did you ever get your car running cool? And does it run good with 8 degrees initial timing? I'm thinking that it might be part of the problem....
 
Anyone else have the trans line in the radiator and notice a loss of power after highway driving? even though my temp gauge reads 185-195 it seems to be more sluggish after a 1/2 hour of run time, Seems to me the trans fluid is getting so hot it is bogging down the motor? or something like that any ideas?
 
over heating

i have a 440 30 over roller max wedge bcool raditor dual fans electric pump 35 gpm, runs hot cant go over 35 mph goes north of 200, fans sent to enguage at 160 therms 160, it seems to be the pump small ports not enough volume going to go back to mech water pump and keep the electric dual fans and see what happens
 
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