A little different twist ... has anyone went to EFI and regretted it?

[Kern Dog]

It's like having a girl that never complains.

I had that before I bought the Charger. In fact, she was so supportive of me buying the car that two days later I told her that I loved her for the first time. My first wife was insecure and didn’t like that I spent time working on my cars.
“You love that car more than me...”
Well, the car does what I want.
The car doesn’t mind if I drive another car.
My car put out fewer emissions than she did.
My car barely weighed more than her...

 

[Garceau]

My main complaint on EFI is that they are not consistent at the track. My 92 sure wasn't. I see just about everyone running EFI at the track have laptops and weather stations and who knows what else. I'm no carb guru but know how to make a car with one consistent....even if the weather changes, my cars ran the number. Nothing like going to the track not having to tune the dang thing between every round and 'hope' it runs the number.

My younger brother just put the Holley Terminator system on my nephews drag car (my old car) in Texas..... his first time out in the car, his first time out in any car other than his junior dragsters he went 8 rounds for the win..... the car printed slips. My brother says its not 100% tuned yet, but the way the car reacted and my nephews ability to drive he got it done and took home a big check. He feels once its dialed in a little tighter (its a completely new set up) he thinks it will be more consistent than his alky carb stuff, his mechanical fuel injection stuff, or his big race carb stuff..... but time will tell.

I am appreciating all the feed back on this. Truly learning through this whole thing. I keep hearing about expenses..... this engine is 505 inches, I just got off the phone this morning with a carb builder and was quoted 900 dollars for a good built carb for this set up. I am aware there are other cheaper models. I am also considering the cost of an entire swap out system....if I do it, its a buy once, cry once kind of scenario. I would most likely go with the new tank, new plumbing, sell off my MSD billet dizzy, 6am and add the holley system to further add tuning abilities.

but still.... i am on the fence.

 

[Cranky]

I had that before I bought the Charger. In fact, she was so supportive of me buying the car that two days later I told her that I loved her for the first time. My first wife was insecure and didn’t like that I spent time working on my cars.
“You love that car more than me...”
Well, the car does what I want.
The car doesn’t mind if I drive another car.
My car put out fewer emissions than she did.
My car barely weighed more than her...

 

[Cranky]

My younger brother just put the Holley Terminator system on my nephews drag car (my old car) in Texas..... his first time out in the car, his first time out in any car other than his junior dragsters he went 8 rounds for the win..... the car printed slips. My brother says its not 100% tuned yet, but the way the car reacted and my nephews ability to drive he got it done and took home a big check. He feels once its dialed in a little tighter (its a completely new set up) he thinks it will be more consistent than his alky carb stuff, his mechanical fuel injection stuff, or his big race carb stuff..... but time will tell.

I am appreciating all the feed back on this. Truly learning through this whole thing. I keep hearing about expenses..... this engine is 505 inches, I just got off the phone this morning with a carb builder and was quoted 900 dollars for a good built carb for this set up. I am aware there are other cheaper models. I am also considering the cost of an entire swap out system....if I do it, its a buy once, cry once kind of scenario. I would most likely go with the new tank, new plumbing, sell off my MSD billet dizzy, 6am and add the holley system to further add tuning abilities.

but still.... i am on the fence.

Curtis?

 

[Garceau]

Curtis?

that’s my lil bro …..

 

[HawkRod]

I'm not sure why this has become such a heated thread of carb vs. EFI. I think both are tools we can use on our old cars.
I have driven and heard about carbureted cars that run great and carbureted cars that run like absolute crap.
I have driven and heard about retrofit EFI cars that run great and retrofit EFI cars that run like absolute crap.

Barring the rare factory defects, a poorly running carb OR EFI system doesn't condemn the system as bad. It means something is wrong with the installation and tuning of the system. How you tune a carb is different than how you tune an EFI system. The knowledge of one vs. the other is not portable. Knowing how to tune a carb will not help that much with tuning an EFI system. But that doesn't make the EFI system bad (or vice versa).

So I respectfully disagree with those that say EFI is bad because they have had, or heard of, someone that had a poorly running one. There are just as many stories (or more) of carb cars running poorly. It's just that EFI is the newer thing so it will get the press, good and bad. The only problem is the bad stuff seems to stick.

I would also like to understand the claims like "Efi works great when it works but longevity is a problem". Really? Where does that come from? Any data to back that up?
I know I am an example of one only, but my FAST EFI system in my 70 Road Runner has been flawless for 7 years of driving, and that includes driving it across country. Yes, I fought with FAST during installation about a bad ECU (it was bad out of the box), but once I got that sorted the system has been perfect. No failures of any kind. I can sit in 95 degree temperatures in stop and go traffic with the A/C on and never worry about vapor lock. I have driven up Pike's Peak (a 9000 foot elevation change) and the car ran great. I have started it in 20 degree weather and 100 degree weather and it simply starts and runs with no fuss. My fuel economy is better. The car just works - period.

And to my above example, I'm sure someone could claim (and already has) that their carb works great too. So we are back to installation and tuning, not the system itself.
EFI is expensive, and requires detailed installation and tuning. But once in and properly tuned, it has benefits over carbs.

 

[themechanic]

Have you tried posting on the Holley forums? If you do be prepared to upload a config file and data log showing what the car does when driving. It’s not hard but that’s the way you’ll get help quickest.

That said, do you have the Holley software? If yes, have you built your own ignition and fuel tables? That’s where the tune lies a d how you make it work like you want it to. Using the handheld with a generic tune is borderline useless.

The software is free but you’d need a cable to connect to the ECU while in the car. There’s plenty of videos on how to create timing and fuel tables. It was confusing for me at first glance but now it’s second nature. It really helped me understand how it all works. It’s really the same procedure as tuning a carb, just slightly different terminology and it’s done through software.

No, I haven't posted anything on the Holley forums. I haven't found any videos or forum posts that helped me solve my problems. Thanks for reminding me how crap Holley customer service is, though.

Installing a Lokar throttle pedal and cable solved the acceleration from idle issue. The self-learn feature and adding fuel enrichment at cold start and some off- throttle tweeks solved my driveability issues.

 

[themechanic]

I'm not comparing EFI to carbs. I'm explaining what happened in my case. Which, is what the original post is about.

 

[themechanic]

I want to mention, but haven't tried it, yet, that installing a helper pump or swapping the factory pump for an electric pump solves the problem of refilling the bowls with fuel after sitting too long. It should also help with the problem of vapor lock with the addition of a return line.

 

[kiwigtx]

I’m not a shill for Holley or FiTech or whatever. I’m all for carburetors if that’s what you want. What bothers me is the reasoning (or lack thereof) for people knocking EFI.

Thank you. I feel the same way.

 

[kiwigtx]

The new vehicles were built with fuel injection to meet emission standards, not for power or reliability. The latter became true through extensive development.

The same goes for electric cars.....but I won't be rushing out to buy one of those.

 

[themechanic]

The same goes for electric cars.....but I won't be rushing out to buy one of those.

My Mom and Dad bought my daughter an EV when she was 5. It was 35 years ago and still had the same problems; limited distance between charges and taking overnight to fully recharge the battery.

 

[kiwigtx]

Sorry but none of that makes any sense.

The amount of miles you drive your car is irrelevant to what kind of fuel mixer is on the engine. Most, if not all street driven cars would absolutely benefit from EFI for all the reasons stated in previous posts.

Second, most retrofit throttle body EFI systems are universal. The main differences are the power rating the injectors can support and whether you have a 4150 or 4500 intake. The throttle body does not care what make the engine is, it’s job is to mix fuel and air.

Real world experience here....not some doom-monger naysaying negatory commentary...... I could zip through a tank of gas way faster than I can with the Holley Sniper. Granted I bought a new engine to go with my Holley Sniper.....but it still uses way less gas, and the power output, while not noticeable in difference to a carb'ed version, is way easier to start, and runs so much sweeter.

***Bonus points for not having my wife sitting in the lounge watching TV and complaining about the stink of fuel percolating in the garage 4 hours after I put the truck away.

 

[rmchrgr]

OK, so on the Elco do you have an in-tank pump? Whatever the pump is, it needs to be providing 58-60 psi consistently. Have you verified that? If the wiring is not that great then it might not be doing what it’s supposed to be doing all the time.

You need to take some data logs. It’s possible you have RFI issues which can wreak havoc on these things. This is why wiring is important but sometimes even the air cleaner stud can be a RFI antenna. Just have to find the source and try to mitigate the effects as best as you can.

I went through it on my car. The coil wire was laying on the alternator and causing RFI. You could see it in the data log, the trace would drop out for .6 of a second or in some cases completely reset itself. I moved the wire and it went away and the car ran better. Just something to look for, it’s not uncommon.

Like I said, you have to be willing to work through this stuff. Yeah, “for the amount of money you shell out the thing should cook you breakfast” but just get over that and figure it out. There’s lot’s of resources out there if you take the time to look.

 

[kiwigtx]

I had that before I bought the Charger. In fact, she was so supportive of me buying the car that two days later I told her that I loved her for the first time. My first wife was insecure and didn’t like that I spent time working on my cars.
“You love that car more than me...”
Well, the car does what I want.
The car doesn’t mind if I drive another car.
My car put out fewer emissions than she did.
My car barely weighed more than her...

You're a smooth talking bar-steward aren't you.

 

[Brewzer67]

I've run both and I have loved both. I started with EFI when Holley introduced the Projection system back in the late 80's. It was tons of growing pain but once I got it set up it was awesome, until...I started going faster and the system couldn't support more than 450 hp.

So I went back to a carb and waited until EFI caught back up. EFI IS caught back up and I thought about switching again but have seen too many stories with bad parts from the get go. That was one of the challenges I had with the Projection unit. The first throttle body I got had a bad pressure regulator. They replaced it then I had the TPS go bad. After that the ECU went. Holley was awesome working with me and eventually things were great and I didn't have anymore issues. I drove it for 6-8k miles that way over a two year period. Even with a lumpy cam I was able to go out in zero degree weather and fire it right up and have it idle off with no assistance. That was pretty impressive, but all the initial issues left a bad taste in my mouth. When it couldn't support the higher HP I was making due to some head work and that new lumpy cam, I could have tried to figure out how to do a dual quad setup, but other than the convenience in cold weather it just wasn't worth it.

A carb with a good fuel system with a return line and return style regulator can fix all of your vapor lock/hard start issues. Cold starts are a little more of a challenge but once you know your car it is easy to get around. I still drive my car in 10 degree weather with a Thumper 1050 and a .715 lift solid roller and don't have issues. I know it is just two extra pumps of gas and I have to feather it a little for 2 or 3 minutes to keep it running. Nothing insurmountable, and definitely not worth it for me to start over again with the yet unknown reliability of current EFI setups.

Bottom line:
Both can work well.
Both take a bunch of money to initially set up correctly.
Both take a bunch of time to get just right.
Both will take time to learn how to fight through the issues...so it really boils down to which fight you want, the one you know (carb) or the one you don't (EFI).

If you're going to get in a fisticuff, most people would rather fight the bully they know rather than a stranger they don't. Others like the conquest of slaying the new badass in town.

Gloves on boys...the bully's are out there.

 

[kiwigtx]

I am going to stick my neck out and suggest that the majority of problems people experience with aftermarket EFI is the installation.

People who don't have sufficient experience, are putting non-factory spec'd parts on a vehicle they don't fully understand.

This leads to problems, and those problems lead to frustration.....and frustration leads to more part swapping and anger.

The same can be said for all the guys here who have put a bigger carb or headers on their car to make it go faster.

The cars never run the same they did as when they left the factory.....the sooner we all get that, the better.

EFI on factory cars will always run better than aftermarket, but that is because the factory spends millions and millions of dollars on R&D to make it right. The modern aftermarket offerings are all based on that research, but not necessarily 100% acclimatised to every make and model of vehicle.....hence the issues some people experience.

 

[68_661charger]

For all the Efi, hemi swaps, overdrives, big brakes etc etc, you sure don't see many out on the road....around here at least.
None of these bother me but I prefer my old cars to be old cars.

 

[1967coronet]

View attachment 1258218

Some how I knew that would be coming.

 

[73HEMI_RR_GTX]

I put efi on dads 68 at his request. His car starts and runs well. I’ve dialled in the efi so it works well. I’ve driven it quite a bit and I guess for him it’s fine. I feel that efi takes something out of the car. Like it’s lost part of its soal. But I’m a carb guy. Nothing like the hours of dialing in a carb so it works flawlessly and when there’s trouble it can be fixed. Efi has its place but a well tuned carb can do just as well as an efi system if you have the ability and take the time to tune it.

Todays EFI technology gets a small block V8 to put out over 400hp and 20mpg and last 200,000 miles. And you don’t have to do a tune up every year.