After my engine break-in - I find this.

[71Beeper]

Snook, I'd love to go roller setup, but its just too much $$$. Besides roller setups do have issues as well. Maybe if I started out with a block that was setup for a roller cam I would have done that.

70rcode, No I haven't opened up the oil filter yet, I still have it. Perhaps when I go and pick up my new cam I'll take it to my engine guy who has the proper tool to do it. Are you saying that a break-in oil is not necessary? if so then I just use the VR-1 oil this go round.

WileERobby, good question. I'm tending to think so as I bought this from Hughes back in 2015.

PRHeads, I agree with you 100%

So tonight I took some measurements.
I started with one of the lifters that was turning.

Then I measured the 3 that were not turning.

Next I measured the lifter bores.

So my next question to you guys is...should I buy the Isky solid lifters or with another high end manufacturer like Crower or Lunanti?

 

[Snook]

Your lifter bores are OK, I'd suspect the cam at this point. I know roller is more $$$ but it's a lot cheaper than going through another rebuild to clean out the debris after a lobe failure. No winners in either scenario. I went with the Isky EZ-roll lifters and cam for a few reasons; peace of mind and the fact that the roller lifters are rebuildable. I just don't have the time to do things over and over and I'm getting too old to do this more than once. I hear you though. Check your good lifters for crown and if that checks out, it's the cam IMO.

Chuck (snook)

 

[70rcode]

Hey Beeper,....At this opportunity, It Would be Interesting to perform a flat tappet lifter Rotation test I recently read about.....With all lifters in their assigned bores & while firmly hand pressing pushrod down on lifter towards Cam, rotate camshaft Twice & check if Edge marked lifter has Rotated about 1 complete Turn....Note results & test other 15 lifters & correct any issues...I,'m going to make that rotation test myself in a few weeks....For typical cast Iron/Molly rings with compatible cylinder hone finish, a good Conventional base 10W30 regular oil + the cam mfg supplied lube additive (I prefer the black Molly paste) uncompromisingly Best protects cam & lifters....Be Sure to do same lifter Rotation test on next engine assembly for a good comparison.....

 

[Geoff 2]

I would NEVER trust digital calipers for an accurate measurement. Is there a small wheel inside that runs along the flat to create the measurement? I do not know, but consider this: photo copy paper is about 0.004" thick. Is the measuring mechanism accurately going to measure to 1/4 of that??

 

[Geoff 2]

Too small a radius on the lifter face could also cause the wear pattern; not necessarily a wrongly ground cam.

 

[Wietse]

The wear pattern may seem in the center now, but that is just due to the wear that already occurred.
The initial contact pattern would have been towards 1 side, and as it wears out the pattern gets wider, towards the middle of the lobe.
On the pictures OP send it can be seen the patterns are not really centered on the lobe but slightly towards 1 side.
Measuring the tappet face taper now will tell you nothing, it has already worn excessively and obviously tell you there is no / lack of taper.

 

[70rcode]

OTOH,.....if he performs the Lifter Rotation test now with existing Cam & lifters & they Do rotate,....then they Were Probably rotating during

 

[Wietse]

Well, it’s the off-center load that forces it to rotate, i think most off the off-center part is worn away by now.
Probably the reason there are 3 that shows they were not rotating.
They stopped rotating as they run flat, these 3 would have had a lot more wear if they never rotated from the first start before the break in.

Rotation check, pre-lubrication an oil priming all supposed to be done prior to run it.
It’s all too late for that, IMO it had a lubrication issue at break in.
A bad lifter or a bad cam lobe could have happened and you would find only 1 or a few that went bad.

 

[71Beeper]

Wietse has a point, I would have never found this issue till it was put in the car and ran, then I would have had a bigger mess.
Me wanting to put fresh gaskets stumbled upon this.
Live and learn boys.

So, no response to my question on whose lifters to buy?
What say ye?

 

[dvw]

I've had issues with Hughes cams before. with the second cam I checked that all the lifters rotated. Broke it in with soft springs. Still went flat. He was not what I would call overly friendly about it. Treated me like I wasn't very knowledgeable. The previous cams in that block were fine. His cam did make very good power. Never bought another product from him.
Doug

 

[70rcode]

You could Still make the relatively simple & no cost lifter rotation test to know what you have...It Could be surprising informative....There's non--coated Tool steel lifters with & without Edm holes ....One good look-over such as Trend & just No comparison words....A truly American made quality oozing masterpiece looking piece that shames what "passes" for most flat tappet lifters these days.....

 

[Wietse]

If you stick with Hughes Engines, follow their advise on lifters and valve springs.
From what i read their cams require their springs for the right tension.
The lifters they sell are Hylift Johnson lifters, which from what i know, is one of few US made brands lifters still out there.

 

[70rcode]

I'm looking at a set of "Hylift Johnson" right now & unless you find Face perimeter nicked edges & irregular face pourisity void Holes acceptable, ...you better get 3 or 4 sets trying to get 16 "iffy" ones . .

 

[dvw]

If you stick with Hughes Engines, follow their advise on lifters and valve springs.
From what i read their cams require their springs for the right tension.
The lifters they sell are Hylift Johnson lifters, which from what i know, is one of few US made brands lifters still out there.

That's what they told me. We had the "wrong" springs. Even though the rate was nearly the same. Put theirs in the 2nd time. Same result. Flat cam.
Doug

 

[Wietse]

I'm looking at a set of "Hylift Johnson" right now & unless you find Face perimeter nicked edges & irregular face pourisity void Holes acceptable, ...you better get 3 or 4 sets trying to get 16 "iffy" ones . .

New ones? Return them where you bought them and question the poor shape they are in.
Everyone knows these are critical things to have a perfect finish otherwise they run to ****.

 

[Jim Milburn]

I've had issues with Hughes cams before. with the second cam I checked that all the lifters rotated. Broke it in with soft springs. Still went flat. He was not what I would call overly friendly about it. Treated me like I wasn't very knowledgeable. The previous cams in that block were fine. His cam did make very good power. Never bought another product from him.
Doug

Funny. I spoke to him yesterday. He’s definitely not a people person.

 

[Wietse]

I dont’t understand, Hughes gives you a no flat cam gurantee IF using their lifters, springs and oil.
For me on the other side of the pond it’s a difficult option due to shipping the oil.
But i knew i would utilize that if i were located in the US.

You have to understand these company’s also, the build engines and do not come across the issues their clients sometimes do.
Offcourse they are not happy if someone is calling who ran his cam flat.
It’s the same as i read things about comp cams, quality issues, flat cam after break in.
I follow Nick’s Garage all the time and i know he uses mainly comp cams, no flat lobes there.
Not saying everyone here is wrong, i know some of you guys are engine builders by trade and have the knowledge.
But there are so many variables that affect this critical period and deviating from the recommendations could cause a failure, which they are warning you for in advance.
If you contact the manufacturer and mention a part of their recommendations that you did not follow and then question them about quality as you had a failure, i can imagen it is upsetting them.

 

[70rcode]

Still a Business model doings "Mystery" to me.... Majority Aftermarket cam grinders Don't mfg their "Brand" Flat Tappet lifters, warranty or not...Their Recommended, Relabeled, Reboxed "kit" lifters are typically carelessly Dinged up looking Junk quality product, seemingly result of some business Accountants best Internal sourcing $$ "Deal" without any upgrade Options mentioned or pushed...... Maybe just my infrequent purchase experience,....after "honest" discussion with cam company product Advisor, .....He admits yes, you Got to "sort" thru many of their Lifters to even get a full "looking" usable set....If I was selling My cam product, I would Start with the absolute Best qual made lifter from "whoever" as Std kit warranty while offering lesser qual if customer insist....

 

[70rcode]

Back in '60 & 70's I never Had or knew anyone having a flat cam/lifter problem altho it Was occasionally mentioned as a rarity issue & that was Street running really agressive & stiff springed Stx-22 type lobes with Mopar factory lifters ... Didn't even Think of pulled inner spring break-ins as had No probs ever.....I never had to know metallurgy or lube/wear physics but Something as yet non-scientificly documented & peer reviewed seems going on with all the occurrences......

 

[Geoff 2]

There is more to just using 'their' lifters with their cam....
And it gives them a get out of jail free card.....
Was the engine timed [ ign ] properly for an instant start?
Was the oil system primed?
Was the carb full of fuel?
Was it run at the prescribed rpm, for x minutes?
Etc.