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After the catastrophe

Paul_G

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My new 505 suffered an extreme over heating issue with 100 miles on the build. A core plug came out at triple digit speeds. I did not know it till the engine was smoking. Blew a head gasket, burnt a groove between 3 and 5 cylinders in the TF PP240 head. The story is here. https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/so-this-is-bad.201491/

The machine shop that prepped the block and installed the stroker kit took the engine back in, repaired the burnt head, inspected the engine and gave it back telling me it is good to re-assemble and run.

I was skeptical about running it till I took a look for myself that everything was good. A good friend also advised to pull the heads and pistons and check it out for myself. This is what I found.

Cylinder walls?

Rod bearings?

Piston #3, above the top ring of the piston has grooves looking similar to a fine thread. This side of this piston is where the groove was burned in the head, it is very rough in that area. Also grooves in that black area down on the skirt. Is that piston trash now? Other pistons, like the last one in the pics, are a little rough in the grooved area as well, just not nearly as bad as piston #3.

Cylinders 3 and 5 below

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Cylinder 3 below

3.jpg


The right bank of the engine next 3 pictures

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“The machine shop that prepped the block and installed the stroker kit took the engine back in, repaired the burnt head, inspected the engine and gave it back telling me it is good to re-assemble and run.”

I’m thinking they didn’t do a thorough inspection.
 
It sure needs some work. Inspector is blind in one eye and can't see out of the other!
Not an expert but at least a hone job and new rings and deburr the pistons. Hope piston to wall is OK after a hone job. Bearings look OK?
 
Not good. Block needs honed.

And what is the black on the piston? Is it something imbedded and now a high spot? Or is it scratches and a low spot.

How do the skirts look on the thrust surfaces? Scored or not?
 
Not good. Block needs honed.

And what is the black on the piston? Is it something imbedded and now a high spot? Or is it scratches and a low spot.

How do the skirts look on the thrust surfaces? Scored or not?

My guess is the black on the piston is oil burned in to the grooves low spot. More pictures showing the skirts. Looks like the 4 pistons in the center of the engine, 3,5,4,6, saw the most heat, have the most scuffing and scratching. 1,7, 2,4, on the ends dont look as bad.

The right bank pistons have grooves deep enough to feel with a finger nail even though the grooves barely show up in the pictures. Some of them have black spots on the skirts, heat checking?

The left bank look the worst, deep grooves easily seen in the pictures along with black heat checking on most of the skirts.

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I can’t provide any help but wanted to say I’m sorry that happened.
 
Lets look at the weld job on the head. The deeper I dig in to this the more my blood pressure is rising. I got the engine back a few weeks ago. This is the first chance I have had to take a good look at it.

Running a finger nail across the weldment I can easily feel the edge of the weld. How will that ever seal up?

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those scuffs on the pistons adjacent to the thrust surface would disturb me. something crooked? are the bores perpendicular to the crank centerline? weld wasn't very good. what head gaskets were used?
 
Lets look at the weld job on the head. The deeper I dig in to this the more my blood pressure is rising. I got the engine back a few weeks ago. This is the first chance I have had to take a good look at it.

Running a finger nail across the weldment I can easily feel the edge of the weld. How will that ever seal up?

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WOW.....I'm certainly sorry to hear of your catastrophe. IMO re the cylinder head repair, .... was Trick Flo consulted b4 the repair was attempted as to the casting alloy used to produce the head? If it is a proprietary alloy, quite possibly they won't tell you the exact composition. Then, HOW did the shop perform the repair, using what alloy, preparation used (preheat-maintain interpass temp-post weld heat treatment), was the repair done using TIG, MIG, SUBMERGED ARC, OR just plain stick electrode and what FILLER METAL was used? Looking at your pixs, the "repair" is totally unacceptable. It is impossible to predict what the repaired area will do when under operating conditions.....temperatures and pressures.....it is likely that the weld area will fail....leak combustion pressures or coolant into the cylinders. Personally, I would not use the head. Possibly you MAY have a legal issue with the shop that performed the repair, especially if you were not advised prior to any repairs prior and to the method proposed and if the manufacturer was consulted. Again, my sympathies as to your problems. Please keep us posted as to your resolution. Just my thoughts.....
BOB RENTON
 
No one mentioned those bearings are toast.
I’m really surprised those got put back in.

I’d have to do some measuring to be sure, but that #3 piston looks questionable.

Frankly, I’d say it’s a good thing you took it apart.

Edit- after looking at that #3 piston a bit more........ for new build like this....... I’d replace it.
 
It’s just a sad deal On this engine here.
@PRHeads, what do you think of the idea of not using the 1 5/8 vs using the 1 41/64 freeze plug size on a mopar? I’ve read about it, but I have been using 1 5/8 for decades and never had one come out.
 
The 'black' scuff marks on the #3 Piston @ 45* to the skirt tang is Black Death..... and indicative of a 'tweaked/collapsed' Piston structure..... meaning the Piston has been superheated and lost it's Cam Ground effect..... or ability to go from "oval" when cold to "Round" when hot and fit the Bore, I suspect it will be very noisey now in operation.

I mean hard to tell from the Pics ?
but that Piston being a 2618 Forging/Cam & Barrell design(I-Beam Pin Boss structures) should measure around .012" to .015" smaller @ 45* to the Tang than it measures at the Tang itself....
I highly suspect you may find #3 Piston is alot closer to ROUND when Cold than the others = Collapsed Piston structure.
so,
if you wanna know for sure Mic the other 7 Pistons @45* and compare to the Piston showing the black..... which I call Black Death.

Sry to hear this Paul.....
 
IMO....
they didn't heat the head sufficiently before welding...... you gotta Tiger Torch the frigg'in things until damn near 800* then WELD.... or when you surface that's what you will get is a separation mark between the patch and parent alloys.(basically porosity between the two)

If it's a 'new' build with only 100 Miles and it was our fault ?
We'd have to eat a new Head Casting and replace it.... we've had to before, that's why nothing leaves anymore until we've Dyno'd it now to the Customers satisfaction....,. in the Customer's presence.
and
Pistons & Rings(next O/S)
ALL Bearings
and on
and on
 
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I appreciate everyone's input in this. The pistons look worse in person than they do in the pictures. I was also told that after the pistons experience such extreme heat like most of them did, they are no longer as strong as they were. I guess another way of saying they are toast.

To get this engine back to pre catastrophe condition, what is the best plan? This is what I think should be done.

Ball hone all the cylinders. New pistons and rings. New rod bearings. New bare head casting and swap over the valves and springs.

Or could that head still be repaired by a qualified person?

Am I wrong or missing anything?
 
My opinion? Total rebuild with a new head. Hope you didn't have to pay anything for that head repair and them to 'check it over' for you.
 
Buy your buddy a case of his favorite.
Sorry about that damage, that's tuff.
 
Ball hone all the cylinders. New pistons and rings. New rod bearings. New bare head casting and swap over the valves and springs.

IMO
That already should have been the 'minimum' ? and you should not have had to disassemble to find out it wasn't ?

That said,
I went back and re-read your other post..... and I noted that you assembled the engine yourself the first time, and that merely the Frost Plug "installed" by the Machine Shop fell out ?
Again IMO,
The Machine Shop can't be expected to take full responsibility for the Engine because as Frost Plug they installed fell out ?
If you wanted that kind of warranty ?
they should have been assembling and Dyno'ing the completed Engine.

Just say'in....
once you accept a partial assembly.... and are completing the Engine final assembly yourself.... I feel it's up to you to change/alter/inspect anything NOT up to your satisfaction as the end user ?
Your Engine ?
Otherwise.... they can merely replace the Frost Plug that fell out ?
The rest of the damage may be yours ?
 
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Hone, Bore if needed. Then determine what pistons are needed. Order custom pistons if needed.
 
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