Carter AFB restoration

Fuel and Air Systems

  1. 62 Dart Convertible

    62 Dart Convertible Well-Known Member

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    Hi Y'all

    I planned to restore my carbs after the engine rebuild was all done. Whilst waiting for parts to arrive from your side of the world, I've decided to use my time wisely and get started on the carbs first.

    So these -
    carbs3.jpg

    Are now this -
    carbs2.jpg

    Have a look at the crap found at the bottom of the fuel bowl of the secondary carb (the secondary jets were both blocked with crap - no wonder it made no power!) -
    carbs1.jpg

    They came apart with not too much trouble, just broke one brass throttle plate screw, but drilled it out OK. With the corrosion I found in the bowls, I thought the jets were in stuck for good, but no, they came out easily. :hello2:

    Monday I am dropping all the steel parts off for zinc plating and the castings off for vapor blasting.

    I have rebuilt plenty of carbs over the years, but never restored them to this level, so I took loads of photos whilst stripping them and made a photobook (with kind thanks to my employer:icon_pirat:).

    If anybody would like to chime in with tips or lessons learnt by genuine experience in these things, please feel free!
     
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    • tallhair

      tallhair Rufus "Mod-hair" Firefly Staff Member

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      thanks .. gonna be a great thread
       
    • lewtot184

      lewtot184 Well-Known Member

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      looks like a fun project. those carbs look like they were in fairly good shape.
       
    • 62 Dart Convertible

      62 Dart Convertible Well-Known Member

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      Hey mate. They were rebuilt around 20 years ago to a similarly questionable standard as most things I have found on the car. The car sat for an awful long time with shitty fuel in them by looks of things. Counting my blessings though, no stripped threads and all parts are there.

      I can't wait to post pics once they are all back together...
       
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      • 2059

        2059 Well-Known Member

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        look forward to seeing this one. It will be interesting to see how they tune and perform when they're done.
         
      • Meep-Meep

        Meep-Meep дворянин

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        AFB's clean up very well with a fine media blast. Not sure how the steel parts will be prepped prior to plating, but if they are blasted you will be able to see the texture after the plating and those parts won't look right. They will look good, but to the trained eye it will be obvious its not OEM. Muriatic acid strips the cad plating in seconds and the platers will know that. I suppose you can strip the steel yourself and sand the imperfections smooth prior to sending them out. The factory just stamped the parts and plated them so whatever you can do to duplicate the process will be a plus.

        Note: Prior to bead blasting my hemi cabs I cleaned them in the ultrasonic to make sure there was nothing for the beads to stick to. This might have made it easier for the ultrasonic to remove hidden beads in the second go around after blasting.
         
      • 62 Dart Convertible

        62 Dart Convertible Well-Known Member

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        Hey Meep-Meep, thanks for the input. I dropped the bits off at platers today and they said they will blast them before cad plating. I had to think when they asked me if I wanted zinc or cad plating?! After thinking about it for a while, I concluded that cad is the way to go. I'm guessing it was the original finish, yeah?! They won't start on it for a few days, so I will drop in again tomorrow and discuss the surface finish difference with blasting you pointed out and see if there is an alternative.

        For the castings, I am taking them in for vapor blasting. It is a wet process that leaves castings looking beautiful without that surface porosity that beading can produce. -
        An example -
        cylinder.jpg
        It seems the finish of choice by motorbike restorers as it looks great and offers greater corrosion resistance.

        On another note, does anybody know the correct finish for the choke housing? It seems to be made from zinc diecast and mine has a slight Olive Dichromate tint like a Holley body...
         
      • Meep-Meep

        Meep-Meep дворянин

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        I have seen wet blasted parts and they look great. No harm there. As far as the choke housing I believe you nailed it - zinc dichromate. Most likely the factory used cad back then but yellow zinc is really close appearance wise.

        Now as a side note, it just clicked as to what cabs those are. Inline 383 / 413? I see the list numbers and I have the exact set with a 383 intake. But I have nothing else and I'd love to see the linkage and other details. Is that fuel line original? Looks like it. I also see the choke is dead on to what they used for the hemi carbs.
         
      • 62 Dart Convertible

        62 Dart Convertible Well-Known Member

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        Hey Meep

        I spoke to the platers about alternate means of preparing parts for plating. They use very fine media and assure me the finish will be good.

        I am having the choke housing wet blasted, and I'll see how it looks. I might leave it like that, or enquire about dichromate. I did ask at the platers about it, and they weren't sure about it. I need to speak to somebody that does Holleys I think.

        These are Chrysler 300H carbs (3259S and 3258S). Did you know Shelby also used these carbs as a dual quad option on 289 Cobra in 1965??!!

        Here is 2 pics of linkage. Let me know if you want a clearer pic -
        P1010367.jpg P1010368.jpg
        I think my linkage may be mounted ass about, as I've seen pics with it opposite way around, such as on this 300H here -
        (I just checked the manual and the below pic is correct.)
        62_Chrysler_300H_engine.jpg
        Anything else you need, just ask. Yes the fuel line is original, and I'm going to a place tomorrow to enquire about having replica lines made.
         
        Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
      • Meep-Meep

        Meep-Meep дворянин

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        62,

        Yes, I knew those carbs were used on the Shelby's. Scary thought on how much they could go for!

        Thanks for the pics. The linkage looks the same as a 426 hemi setup, and I bet that's where the hemi got it from. I can duplicate that short section of fuel line in under an hour providing the bend radii matches my bender.

        - - - Updated - - -

        I'm thinking as long as the platers don't disturb the factory tooling marks on the linkage you will be OK.
         
      • 62 Dart Convertible

        62 Dart Convertible Well-Known Member

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        Yeah, I contemplated borrowing the tools and bending and flaring the fuel lines myself, but I've already got too much to do... Today I dropped them off for copies to be made by a reputable place so I'm expecting they'll come out nice.

        Meep, those carbs are worth $$ to somebody that needs them!! Have you seen what folks ask for the oval air cleaners??!! (Hell, a pair of new filter elements cost me $98, and the quality ain't great...)

        I'm also hoping the plating looks original-ish, but I'm no trophy chaser :icon_winkle:

        While I'm waiting for my carb parts back, I think tomorrow I will wash the block and start assembling the engine:headbang: (I will later start another thread on that one...)
         
      • Meep-Meep

        Meep-Meep дворянин

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        Yeah, I don't have the air filter assys either. But I don't have an original car that this came on so I can improvise a bit. What I should do is make a base for one of my oval lids.

        One note about the stock divided plenum intake. It does not like big overlap cams. So hopefully you are building your engine stock or with a very mild cam.

        Can't wait to see how your carbs come out!
         
      • 62 Dart Convertible

        62 Dart Convertible Well-Known Member

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        That reminds me I need to organise repainting of my air cleaners......

        For not OE, I quite like the look of the Edelbrock oval air cleaner for dual quads, but their carb spacing is different to Ma's and plus it's got the 5 1/4" holes. I've seen guys use Harley alloy air cleaners that have a similar shape to the stock footballs. For the die hards, reproductions are available but $$

        My cam is a Lunati Hydraulic Voodoo 268 with 112 LSA, so I'm pretty sure I should be OK. It had a bigger solid in it before and it still had a ton of torque.

        I am picking up the plating and the new fuel pipes in a few hours and will post a pic later. I haven't heard from the blaster yet, but they can't be far away......

        Frank
         
      • Meep-Meep

        Meep-Meep дворянин

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        That Lunati should do the trick. The 112 LS is magic for a street car.
         
      • 62 Dart Convertible

        62 Dart Convertible Well-Known Member

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        I have seen you write that before in another thread, and it helped me in my decision. I reckon the cam should be just right too...

        I picked up the plating and fuel lines. The plating all up cost me $80 and looks great! The 3 fuel lines look great too, but I spat shit when the guy said "that will be $144". I said, "What about the quote of $48?" To which he said "Oh, that was each!". I can't repeat what I said next, but suffice to say we reached a satisfactory compromise.

        Sorry for crap pics from camera phone under LED lighting...

        Plated parts -
        parts plated.jpg

        Fuel lines, new vs old -
        Fuel lines new and old.jpg
         
      • Meep-Meep

        Meep-Meep дворянин

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        What plating did you settle on? Yellow zinc or cad? Lines look good - really good! But for $48.00 per line I might quit my day job or take on side work! Holy crap!!
         
      • 62 Dart Convertible

        62 Dart Convertible Well-Known Member

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        Change your sig Meep - "fuel lines made for parts bartering" :idea1:

        I went with cad plating as it looks correct. Zinc is not as long lasting as cad too I'm told, and that shinier bluish look is too "new".

        They said it took them a few hours to get those fuel lines exact, and keep in mind at $48 ea I supplied them the new flare nuts too.... I ended up paying $90.

        I was wrong about the cam LSA, as Voodoo 268 has 110 deg. Hopefully that 2 degrees doesn't spoil the party too much. (I chose not to go too gay with the cam as I do like a little rump-rump...) The card says if installed straight up, it has 4 deg of ground-in advance. Would you recommend I stick with installing it as such, or should I advance/retard it?

        Cheers - Frank
         
      • Meep-Meep

        Meep-Meep дворянин

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        I like it! I have scrapped a few lines myself but practice makes perfect.

        Cad I believe is the old standard so good call on the platers part. And if they look correct to you they probably are. I absolutely love attention to detail and I think you are on it!

        I have had some mild 110 LSA cams work great but never tried with that intake so I'd be really careful. The shorter the LSA the more overlap, but the cam grinders might play games with the lobe profile to not kill your idle vacuum and not cause too much reversion in the intake. There is some magic (or shall I say Voodoo) in cam grinding, so go with the target RPM range of the cam and the recommended compression ratio, but also keep in mind that factory divided plenum single plane intake is likely not part of any modern cam testing data. Most cam companies know people will use either a classic dual plane or a single plane X type like a torker. The cams that were used with those inline 2 4 BBL engines we'd consider pretty gay but they worked.

        My 440 with the MoPar .455" / 272 has a nice mellow rumble like a street hemi but it will run circles around one. And that said I'd be really surprised if that factory type 2 4 BBL intake ran very well on my 440. I have the aluminum Offy version and should try it to see what happens - might surprise myself!

        The 4 deg advance on your cam will close the intake valve sooner and that will keep the cylinder pressure up and the reason for the 4 deg advance is to deal with timing chain stretch. I'd just put it in as they recommend.
         
      • 62 Dart Convertible

        62 Dart Convertible Well-Known Member

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        I am a bit of a stickler for details Meep. It gets me in trouble some times as I have difficulty compromising...

        The cam I pulled out of it was the MP solid. It seemed to work OK (had 112 LSA), but I couldn't really judge well as it had several problems preventing it from delivering ie stock valve springs and crapped up carbs. I won't miss the mechanical clatter though, that's for sure. Back in 1962, Dodge offered all sorts of aftermarket dealer fitted solid cams with this 300H motor, but I've never seen the full specs on their offerings. If I wasn't trying to keep stock look (and had the bonnet clearance), I'd use the Eddy dual plane dual inline quad intake. I'm sure it would make more power and vacuum. Oh, well....

        Now I thought manufacturers grind in cam advance purely to move the sweet spot a little up or down the rev range, and not to compensate for chain wear?! This engine has TRW forged 426 max wedge 11:1 slugs in it, so cylinder pressure should be plentiful either way. Luckily 95 and 98 octane fuel is common here, as it certainly didn't like 91, it pinged like crazy!

        I am picking up the carb castings tomorrow from the wet blasters so expect to see some pretty pics soon....
         
      • Meep-Meep

        Meep-Meep дворянин

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        The dual plane would probably be a better choice but it is what it is. That MoPar .528" (if that's the cam you're talking about) is a good one. I ran one in a 383 and it put my 3700 lb RR into the high 12's. And it is on a 112 LSA. It's also a upper mid range cam so still might not be the best for that stock intake.

        11:1!!! You won't have problems with too little cylinder pressure! That might be a little much even for that new cam you have.

        Can't wait to see some pretty pics!
         
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