Cooling Air Flow Question (2 part)

[multimopes]

Wow, there is help here 24/7 and I really appreciate it. Thanks for the suggestions Cornpatch. I am going to do just that. Actually, there is a cooler in the bottom of the rad but the bungs are too small. There was no rad-trans cooler in the 22" cross flow, they used a 4 pass cooler strapped to the radiator. My gauge is a mechanical type with a cap tube and it is in the water pump housing. I think my issues might be a little of both air and water. The engine is from 68 and I have no history on it as the race motor was removed before I bought it. That being said my water passages could be half blocked. Someone here with a cooling problem said he pulled the motor out and had it boiled but that is a whole level I can't do right now. Also I need a new pump housing as the top flange is no longer flat. I got into a discussion on that with someone else and it was pointed out some after market companies products had passages that were too small. By the way, I did drill (2) -1/8" holes through the stat flange to help bleed the system like I always do. I don't want to remove the dual cooler just yet but I considered changing it and have already picked out several possibilities. I am running Zerex G05 in the system. It's supposed to get hot out here today so I will test out the cardboard method. I have already found several replacement fans and even if I change just one it might make all the difference in the world. I will report back later.
Thank you also idrive, I didn't realize how varied a selection of radiators the factory had used. I know that back in the 60's, a non A/C car had a different water pump, at least on the slant 6. I also am aware that some 440's radiator connections went to either side top and bottom but never knew the selection was that varied and certainly never saw mention of a 28". There is a thinner section of my radiator support on the drivers side that could be fairly easily removed so that could be an option if I exhaust a few others first. Time to get to work, thanks again to all!

 

[Ranger16]

Perhaps it is less of a problem but more of a concern from my vantage point. I like things to be bullet proof with lots of fudge factor in between. With my 3.91 gears and no overdrive on the interstate and riding up mile long hills at 60 mph I feel uncomfortable with the temperature gauge hitting 205!

Ahh, 205 is another story and I would share your concerns. I too was running at 200-210 (got up to 230 in a long traffic jam at the Power tour 2015). I ditched the 190 factory stat for a 180 and added a fan shroud. Everything else is original. Problem solved.

 

[multimopes]

Thanks Ranger, I am running a 160 high flow and can't seem to stay around 180! I wish my wallet was a little deeper so I could put a quick end to this; I would sleep better then! I am going out to play with it now and report back later!

 

[Ranger16]

Thermostats are cheap. Have you tried a standard flow stat to see if it makes any difference?

 

[multimopes]

Yes I did, a 160 and a 180. The high flow did not make much of a difference, a little maybe, but every little bit helps.

 

[multimopes]

Well, the results of test running with blocked off fender areas are that there was virtually no change. Thanks for the tip Cornpatch. It still might be an airflow problem though as the fans are only 950 cfm each. I will play some more with airflow an see what develops. Anyone who put money on it making a difference have lost, I am sorry to say!

 

[Ranger16]

Lets go back to the beginning. How long have you had this car and when did the problems start, or was it this way from (your) day one?

 

[multimopes]

Had the car for approx. 6 years now. Problem always there to some degree. See my entry #16 for most of the history. Had past episodes of close to overheating. A blown controller fuse, a bad connection (spade male was not inserted into female, just pushed together inside shield), hose collapse, sticking stat, no coolant overflow,(just a sealed unit for drag racing), bad circuit breaker for fan controller, bad fan controller, bad voltage lead to fan controller and a couple more I don't recall at the moment. Went from 22" to 26?" inch rad. From one 16" fan and no shroud to dual 11" fans with shroud, to dual fan controller with manual overrides and run feedback lights, the same 2 11" fans in shroud on the larger rad, several stat changes, high flow pump and high flow stat. Recent install of 10" wide dual oil and trans cooler mounted on the verticle support in front of rad which I now think is the reason for the lack of improvement. I have taken the car on a couple trips of 160 miles and the temp always ran on the warm side. I have never checked the timing and I realize that this can cause heat problems but because the car ran so well and did not ping, I assumed the timing was spot on as I bought the car from a reliable certified mechanic. I also recently bought a timing gun to check the total timing with and some degree tape. I will eventually get it sorted out but I don't have much time to spend on it as I am being pulled in many directions at the same time all the time. As it stands right now I am planning to upgrade my 60 amp alternator to something over a 100 amps and install at least one much more powerful fan. Also need to change out the water pump housing as the stat flange on this 1968 motor, is no longer flat requiring double gaskets to stop leaking. The housing may also partially plugged, not sure. There is no doubt that there is room for improvement.

 

[Ranger16]

Seems like you have been where I was going to suggest. All I can say is I'm running a factory 18", 7 blade fan on a 22" radiator with a 180 thermostat and having no problems. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to borrow a power flush gun from AutoZone and power flush the block. Other than that, I'm out of ideas.

 

[Cornpatch MO]

Well, the results of test running with blocked off fender areas are that there was virtually no change. Thanks for the tip Cornpatch. It still might be an airflow problem though as the fans are only 950 cfm each. I will play some more with airflow an see what develops. Anyone who put money on it making a difference have lost, I am sorry to say!

I did not mean to just block off the fender area's. I meant to make a rectangulr funnel, forcing ALL the air ( including at the top) thru the radiator. Is it possible you are expecting to much ? You can't make a radiator kick out ice cubes..LOL Good luck..............................MO

 

[multimopes]

Thanks to both of you and any other good folks. I will give that another shot with more cardboard. To be fair it was 90 plus degrees yesterday. I had sealed along the top and bottom with high temperature rubber a month ago and jammed up any other areas with foam rubber. I really added the oil cooler to use as a diagnostic, looking for blow by or something. The small gain was that the 2nd fan did not run all the time, it cycled on and off so I am working towards a resolution. I really must check the timing also as it could be adding to or causing the problem. The other thing is that with the oil cooler, I have increased capacity by over a quart which is good from my perspective. No doubt, about making a radiator kick out ice cubes; but in the word's of the late, great Jimmy Stewart," Well maybe I can't but you gotta give me credit for tryin!"

 

[HEMI-ITIS]

Does it get hot when driving over 40 or when your at a light or taffic??

 

[khryslerkid]

Mopes, I've been looking for a waterpump for my 440 build and I have never seen so many write ups on this subject of high temperature problems on these engines. I just came across this thread on dodgecharger.com and it covers about everything I've ever read, all in one thread. One member even goes to the extent of testing every possible BB mopar waterpump made. The results were very interesting. I haven't read where you mentioned what pump you are useing.

Everyone should read this...

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.0.html

 

[Dennis H]

High flow, aluminum, electric fan. Ma Mopar had it right. Copper, thermal, etc. It works.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

Dennis lol He's not going back to stock love the diligence though. Mopes I'll add my 2 cents I guess since I have experimented with a few different things / ways and no Dennis I wont push the Evan's on him lol.

Since it's summer and you don't need your heater, and I know some say too fast a flow = no enough time to cool BUT have you tried to run what you brung without the stat installed? Just wondering helps dial in the solution a bit more if you have and reported the results. Also The new radiator you have - I think you said originally it was a 2 row? is that 2 rows of 1" tubes? If they are smaller you may want to consider changing it, if you have the room and the $$ 1-1/4" rows are better. If they are 1" min you should be ok. Also the trans cool if it is small set it off to the side of the rad not right in front, I have a cylinder type that is mounted to the side all together so there is no blockage at all.

Also, Your fans should be set to turn off before you hit 65 mph, I know most all relay set ups are for temps and not mph but you should be able to find a happy middle on the cooler side. And both fans should run at the same time while motor is running, I know you said you have a lower amp alt but give it a shot, my fans were advertised at 1400 CFM each for a total of 2800 (12" pullers) but after idle tests I found they pulled in certain spots up to 4000 cfm combined so don't discount yours just yet.

Stat at 165 but temps stay around 180-190? well 180 is awesome and great cruising temps when you're at 210-220 constantly while cruising then something is blocking the airflow most likely due to the fans running and counteracting the flow through the radiator at higher speeds.

To test things at idle run your car to the stat temp, and take a digital temp gun and check all the surface areas of the radiator, pump housing, hoses top and bottom and compare that to what your mech gauge is telling you this is with the fans running.

I will be getting this set up for my fans when I get my car back, in the mean time you may want to wire in a shut off switch for manually turning the fans off when you hit 50 mph on real hot days.
https://www.hotrodhotline.com/conte...r-fan-shutoff-ron-francis-wiring#.V4By4vkrI2w

Just my 2 cents, good luck man.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

Mopes, I've been looking for a waterpump for my 440 build and I have never seen so many write ups on this subject of high temperature problems on these engines. I just came across this thread on dodgecharger.com and it covers about everything I've ever read, all in one thread. One member even goes to the extent of testing every possible BB mopar waterpump made. The results were very interesting. I haven't read where you mentioned what pump you are useing.

Everyone should read this...

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.0.html

I remeber that thread, 440 source pumps have the BB impellers on them that flow better than the small block versions I have one and it works good, I think tuning is more of a problem with most that with a combo of today's gas and boom some overheating happens

 

[khryslerkid]

It's an old thread, 2009, but most were stating that the original pumps did better. Mainly the stamped 8 blade impellers. Here and there, I read that 440 source missed the mark on the impeller and especially the restricted housings. The swirl shaped impeller didn't preform well at all.
All anyone has to do, is take off the radiator cap and watch how much flow that you have after the thermostat opens. The timing is a big factor also when dealing with today's fuels. It all has to be balanced out depending on the particular setup.

 

[multimopes]

Thanks again to all for the responses. Hemi-I,Yes in fact it does get hot over 40 mph. If it is cool outside maybe around 50 degrees it does much better and will run around 185. Even at Idle it will slowly build up to 190 to 195 with both fans on.
I saw that article, Kryskid, (which was excellent by the way) and it was pointed out that it was from 7 years ago. I read somewhere that 440Source pump housings have been re-done.
Dennis, I wish I had the factory stuff to go back to but I don't. I agree with that though!
Howdy there Bigman, I pummeled you with cooling questions during your Evans conversion and you were very helpful and thorough I and appreciated that. Your new input and link to the Ron Francis cut out sounds good. I have installed manual (run) switches for each fan already; along with run lights that tell me power is to the fans. I have done this on every electric fan on every car I have owned. Never trusted relays and sensors to be 100% reliable. I never heard of a system cut out for the fans though. But, that opens up a whole new area to discuss.
First, I wonder how many CFMs the factory mechanical fans were rated at for a high optioned A/C car. Then there are the discussions on how deep to install the fan into the shroud; which brings up my next quandary. Many aftermarket fans can be purchased separately and pre-installed into a shroud. The design of the shroud and how the maker installs them is my next can of worms. I have noted that some shrouds have either holes, holes with flaps, or louvers or are solid,(just the holes for the fan or fans themselves). I will try to attach a photo of my past 22" Northern radiator with its factory fans and flow through louvers.

As you can see, not only did they provide flow through cooling, but I even added some more with a hole saw to augment theirs. Of course, after I did it and saw some other shroud / fan setups that used rubber flaps that I believe open during driving and thought that maybe the ones I added decreased the efficiency of the fans at stop / idle and low speed. I put those same 1100 CFM fans on the new 26" radiator shroud from ECP. Funny thing is, there are no other holes in the new shroud so it kind of makes sense that they could in fact impede air flow at highway speed. As $$ is always tight, I will first try a cut out switch for my fan controller and see if that helps. By the way, I installed a Derale dual fan controller that I can adjust to an extent. The only thing I can set is Kick on temperature which I set approx. 175. The second fan will kick in 15 degrees later. With my override switches I switch the second fan on myself when I approach a long steep hill to kind of head it off at the pass. Remember that my car was stripped so I can't switch on a heater/fan to assist with cooling when approaching high temps. My water pump is a 16 blade high flow (Flowkooler) and it did not help much after installing, even with the high flow stat. I will post a picture of the new fan-shroud setup later, (when I get home). The flow through the radiator looks good after the stat opens. I am also going to install a plastic, viewable strainer insert into the upper radiator hose, that I just bought.
That way I can see the flow when it's all the way up to temperature and the cap is on! By the way, I forgot, Bigman, my radiator is 2 rows of 1" tubes. If it winds up that I need more cooling capacity, I will go for a 3 row of 1 1/4" and 2 variable speed 3000 CFM fans, that is after I sell a few internal organs on Ebay ! I see that you have about 800 more cfm's than mine are. Also I will most likely change out my dual Trans-Oil cooler for the Heat-sink can type. They are cheap, about $25 a piece; but it breaks my heart to have to do that after I was so proud of my installation with it's AN fittings and all. Makes me wonder what can I expect if I ever install an A/C system with that big condenser blocking the airflow! By the way, I rarely hit 65 mph with that 3.91 posi back there, I can almost watch the fuel gauge drop as it is! I will also do that testing with my
temperature gun that you suggested. By the way, Bigman, I bought and installed that same rad cap as you to see the temperature and it's fairly close!
Thanks again!

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

Sweet, get a temp gun harbor freight has them for like $6 it will serve you well and show you the real hot spots also will confirm gauge readings. Here is some reading material scroll down to the over heating section. I got a funny feeling your motor / trans/ gear combo may be causing this some how.

You have eliminated a lot of the possibilities to the overheating issue, I.E. stat, pump, etc. by the your picture I couldn't imagine those hoses collapsing? it would be the bottom feed hose that would get sucked in on itself, don't laugh it happens a main reason why I put a stainless steel spring in my lower hose! and run evans after the hose collapse in a hard hammer down run and the pressure build up of the water coolant I blew out a freeze plug and dropped it all on the road temps went to 250 in seconds, never again with the evans in there and the spring for extra insurance.

One thing they mention in this article is belts and tension and slippage, I didn't see in any of your posts if you had checked on this or tried different belts? Just another item to check I guess. I am just hoping you don't have any large chunks of debris in the passages causing this. After I got the evans in and this new rad and fan set up in I would check the top tank occasionally and find small chunks of iron laying in there. can be gotten out with a decent earth magnet but still it's like my block was well on its way to rust city despite the inhibitors and this and that. I don't think you would have to remove the motor to get a decent flush on the motor and HEATER core. which reminds me, have you bypassed the heater core for an experiment to see if there if there is maybe some blockage there causing a flow issue?

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2013/...oubleshooting-common-cooling-system-problems/

 

[Dennis H]

On the ac, the Classic Auto Air condenser covers much of the 26"er. No impact to cooling. Normal driving runs 165 ish, too cool imo.