Cooling Air Flow Question (2 part)

[multimopes]

I have a temperature gun and just got another (to compare with) so I will do the test the next opportunity. I was aware of the bottom hose sucking flat as it happened to me 40 years ago with my 70 Challenger RT 383. The funny thing here is the picture above shows the old 22" radiator; it had a preformed bend in it at the stat neck. That hose would not fit the new 26" radiator. Tried to buy the same the same type of hose but no longer available. Although it went on fine, after the first local test drive, it sucked flat at the t-stat neck once it was heated. I replaced the upper with a conventional hose.
The belt is new and tight, doesn't slip or squeal.
When I flushed the motor before the new radiator install, very little of anything came out. The same is true when several drain downs for stat changes were done.
I have no heater / heater core to shut off or bypass. I wish I did. I got a factory A/C heater box years ago from a bone yard in California. Bought a new heater core for it also. Haven't installed it yet as access is difficult due to roll bar coming down inside front doors. I am not as flexible as I once was. Creature comforts would be nice as well as power steering which I also have. These are projects for the future. I will attach some photos of the old trans cooler (behind the new one), the new dual oil / trans cooler, the old 22" radiator and shroud and the (kink) that developed in the upper hose after the first warm up. Also the oil cooler thermostatic valve. I am not that savvy with some of this software and I hope I don't run into a problem uploading the pictures. By the way, the previous picture I sent can be expanded if you click on it and I assume these will work the same.[/ATTACH]

 

[Ranger16]

Whoa, That kinked hose may be what is causing your flow and thus your hot running problem.

 

[multimopes]

It was the first time I drove it after the install. I immediately went down to the auto supply and replaced it with what you will see in the next picture which also shows the new shroud setup on the 26" radiator. The hose was not like that until I drove it a short bit and it heated up. The one it replaced had a preformed bend in it at the stat end but would not fit the new radiator and was no longer available. By the way BigmanJB, I think I have the same ECP radiator that you have but with reversed hose hook up!

 

[multimopes]

I give up, I can't seem to upload one stinkin photo! Bill Gates sux! You'll just have to believe me, it's a smooth regular hose, not corrugated! The way the upload photos is working right now is not the same as when I did the last cluster! When the black box appears to search it never works! Screw it I going to get a beer!

 

[multimopes]

I really think I am in the Twilight Zone, After multi attempts and nothing I give up and 3 appear! Now I am going to have 3 beers! Actually I am going to try to delete 2 of the same pic as I don't want to waste space on this excellent site! Well, that didn't work either, I had a feeling that I should have stayed in bed today instead of going to work! My Bad!

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

Lmao at least you got it, Try a hosting service, I was using photobucket but they went full retard on my so now I use imgur works the same, each picture has multiple links for ll kinds of different ways of showing it like this board, its easier than uploading here then finding it and attaching it. So this rad and fans are your new or old set?

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

Funny thing about that, the 440source pump housing and pump I got are passenger side inlet at the bottom and driver side outlet at the top, I didn't know it at the time but that pump and housing are for trucks and cars with A/C from what I hear. and supposedly a bit heavier duty? dumb luck maybe on my part.

It was the first time I drove it after the install. I immediately went down to the auto supply and replaced it with what you will see in the next picture which also shows the new shroud setup on the 26" radiator. The hose was not like that until I drove it a short bit and it heated up. The one it replaced had a preformed bend in it at the stat end but would not fit the new radiator and was no longer available. By the way BigmanJB, I think I have the same ECP radiator that you have but with reversed hose hook up!

 

[multimopes]

Thanks again to all. Bigman, the triple pic is the latest and present setup. I don't know a thing about hosting services, I hate the idea of having another user name and password. Heck, I used to build and rebuild computers years ago. If I can't upload from my own PC then I get flustered. I know how to change pics to JPEG and such but I will research those sites.
I think you said that your pump and pump housing are from 440Source, is that right? If so, did you notice the passages in the housing being smaller than stock? That was the point of the article from 7 years ago. I just wanted to know as I need a new housing and 440Source prices are much better than others.
Also, do you have a picture and how long is your can style of trans cooler and is it a one pass or 2 pass? The one pass type has a fitting at each end where the two pass has both fittings at one end. The one pass is smaller in diameter than the two pass also. I will being testing as soon as get a day off and also going to install that filter/plastic viewable device in my upper radiator hose. Will take pic of it when done. I just got it last week and was thrilled at the prospect of seeing the coolant flow in a system that is at running temperature with syatem closed. I was going to get the (cool-view) transparent thermostat housing but they run over a hundred bucks and I think you have to use their t-stats! This little gem was about $40 bucks and easier to install. By the way, I replaced my radiator drain petcock with a close nipple to a 90 degree elbow to a ball valve as the provided petcock crimp failed and I had to unscrew it to drain. On top of that, they generally shoot coolant strait out towards the frame. Now I have it directed down to the catch can.
Damn, I am wearing out my fingers with all this typing and most likely any viewers are getting tired of my ranting. However I am nearing what I hope is the answer soon. I just need time!

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

440s housing, its plenty big on ports

My Trans cooler 2 pass
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-7365g


A look inside my block water ports

FYI factory pumps

Look at how small the passenger side pump opening is vs the new aluminum one wow

Also in regards to that 7 year old post look at the old aluminum housing vs mine from them in my pic which I got in 2010 I would say there is a difference in the stock 44s picture than what they sent out.

http://store.440source.com/Water-pu...ssenger-Side-Lower-Hose/productinfo/200-1079/

 

[multimopes]

Thank you again bigman,
All I wanted to ask you now is, " was that your trans cooler mounted vertically on the drivers side in the picture you sent with no grill in your car?"
Also, you said you are waiting to get your car back; what are you having done if you don't mind my asking? I now have some testing to perform, I will report the results so as to put this behind me. Thank you again to all!

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

My car is at a body shop getting all re done and new paint. Yes mounted vertically.

 

[Shorthorse]

I wasted a lot of money and time trying to get my race car to cool down. I have a 22" radiator and had a 22" shroud with bypass flaps and two 10" fans advertised at 2350 cfm each. The problem turned out to be the shroud. It was thin and sat way to close to the radiator core. Regardless of the fans combined cfm , it was actually restricting the air. Got it fixed with a different fan (3300 cfm) and deeper shroud configuration.
There's also another consideration. Unlike a belt driven fan, electric fans have a constant speed. So lets just say that a 3300 cfm fan flows air equivalent to X miles per hour. Once you exceed that X miles per hour, the fan has to become less efficient or possibly might even have a restrictive effect. I can't say for sure. There are lots of guys successfully running electric fans on the street.

 

[multimopes]

This is all starting to add up now. The road test and suggestions given confirm that at least most of my problem was / is air flow. The cardboard plenum helped and so did shutting the fans off over 50 mph. If you look at the picture of my 22" shroud,(above the kinked hose pic), you'll see that the shroud was made with louvers cut into it for free flow. Although they might have helped at given speeds, they most likely made the suction much less efficient. Add to that I made it worse by drilling a bunch more holes to add more free air flow but made the fans even less efficient. I had noted seeing shrouds with rubber flaps that would shut at idle and lower speeds. The function of free air flow verses fan air flow is quite evident. I also have noted that my 2 fans combined have less cfms than most everyone else's single fan by quite a bit (only 1950 or so); not up to snuff. I believe that in a properly designed system, the fans should be able to pull enough air at speed so that they shut off on coolant temperature and then free flow takes over.
When I shut off my fans at 50 mph, the temps stayed around 185 to 190. This means that not only are my fans not adequate to do the job, they also restrict free air flow.
I noted my brothers PT Cruiser has one 2 speed fan that pulls so much air it has a 40 amp fuse feeding it and that is with a 4 cylinder car!
I had ordered a 95 amp alternator and installed it already and just got 2 new electric fans rated at 1500 cfms each! Also the new fans have flat type blades with wider openings between each blade for even better free flow air. I will have to increase the wire size as well as fusing.
I am finally seeing light at the end of my tunnel and this time maybe it's not a just a freight train cummin my way! (thanks Metallica) and everyone else for the input help!
I will post the end results soon I hope.....

 

[Shorthorse]

My friend had a Flex-a-lite Black Magic setup. It keeps their car cool even on the hottest days so I went with that. They are thick so you need room. I have a race car so I just activate it manually. It's all about your combination. All cars are different and as they say, "Result may vary".

 

[Cornpatch MO]

This is all starting to add up now. The road test and suggestions given confirm that at least most of my problem was / is air flow. The cardboard plenum helped and so did shutting the fans off over 50 mph. If you look at the picture of my 22" shroud,(above the kinked hose pic), you'll see that the shroud was made with louvers cut into it for free flow. Although they might have helped at given speeds, they most likely made the suction much less efficient. Add to that I made it worse by drilling a bunch more holes to add more free air flow but made the fans even less efficient. I had noted seeing shrouds with rubber flaps that would shut at idle and lower speeds. The function of free air flow verses fan air flow is quite evident. I also have noted that my 2 fans combined have less cfms than most everyone else's single fan by quite a bit (only 1950 or so); not up to snuff. I believe that in a properly designed system, the fans should be able to pull enough air at speed so that they shut off on coolant temperature and then free flow takes over.
When I shut off my fans at 50 mph, the temps stayed around 185 to 190. This means that not only are my fans not adequate to do the job, they also restrict free air flow.
I noted my brothers PT Cruiser has one 2 speed fan that pulls so much air it has a 40 amp fuse feeding it and that is with a 4 cylinder car!
I had ordered a 95 amp alternator and installed it already and just got 2 new electric fans rated at 1500 cfms each! Also the new fans have flat type blades with wider openings between each blade for even better free flow air. I will have to increase the wire size as well as fusing.
I am finally seeing light at the end of my tunnel and this time maybe it's not a just a freight train cummin my way! (thanks Metallica) and everyone else for the input help!
I will post the end results soon I hope.....

Interesting about "free air flow" being restricted by the fan(s) themselves. I never thought of that happening. Maybe more fan blades is not always a good thing................................MO

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

Personally i still think most over heating issues are thin cylinder walls and no matter what you do it's not going to be corrected with bigger cooling only a new block.

 

[multimopes]

Well, it's been a fun journey and I finally bought and installed the new 95 amp alternator, twin 1500 cfm fans, a new billet t-stat housing with O-ring, and a clear view (Gano) coolant filter in the water pump discharge hose. I will attach pictures of the old 950 cfm fan next to the new 1500 to show how much more open the new fans are as well as the increased air flow and much better temperature control. I also installed new ignition wires with ceramic boots. You can see the other items installed in a few other shots I took as well. Thanks again to all of you!

 

[multimopes]

Thanks Bigman! You didn't by chance get your car back from the body shop yet, did you? I would love to see it! Be sure to let me know!

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

No not yet, almost done had to make the call to go full lift off hood so they are putting the rear hood pin brackets and stuff on and aligning it all. it's in it's second coat of primer waiting to dry then it's ready for paint.

So have you tested the new cooling set up how does it work? 3000 cfm is great.

 

[mlktst]

Mulimopes I run a 26" radiator 36 dollar mechanical fan a 1" spacer NO clutch. 160 degrees driving 170 in traffic In august south Texas hot and humid o yes 160 thermostat.