Degree an installed/unknown camshaft

[Wietse]

It could be as much as 7 to 10 degrees

Wow, that is quite a lot more than i was expecting.

Here at the gas station they offer 2 types, RON 95 and RON 98. (RON=Research Octane Number)
I always used RON 98.
Nowdays they started with adding Ethanol to the fuel, knowing E5 and E10, with the number 5 or 10 indicating the % of Ethanol added to the normal fuel.
This is probably not good news for our vintage carb engines, although i believe you can adjust the carb setup to work better with these mixtures.
Maybe i would not recognize detonation, but i think that if the car really suffered from this it would have blown up already as i have been hitting it hard, specially after changing my carb to the 770 vac secondary to see how the AFR readings worked out at high loads and WOT.
And i could actually drive it like i stole it.
That was with it at 36* total advance, all-in @ 2500 rpm.
With the lower pressure i believe for sure i have not to worry about detonation, maybe i can even step down on RON 95 which is cheaper.
Testing this will tell, still far away from driving it though...

So, if the off the line is sluggish, you think i can advance it 4* by reposition the crank sprocket to the 4* advance position? (assuming it is 4*, need to check timing again....)
Really, i can get that done now by the blink of an eye after all this training

 

[wyrmrider]

for those thinking a HR might be better- it depends

here is a inverse opening ramp hyd roller
you can see you do not give up much with a.904 lifter

……......………...lift …..seat....050...200
GHR-236HYD .501" 287° 236° 149° Engle 2001


EHR72360 .540″ 280° 234° 155° Jones more recent similar @.050
note here that Jones is at .006 and Engle at .008 so the Jones is even sorter
here the Jones is inverse on both flanks
Thank GM and their R&D for their Indy car program
think about the difference in dynamic compression-- intake close point
​

EHR74365 288° 242° 162°. 547″
here's another Mike Jones with what appears to have more seat duration than our 284 cam but given the difference in .006 and .008 advertised it does not
look how the .050, .200 and lift change

for list look here
http://jonescams.com/hydraulic-roller-tappet/

"The GHR & XLHR-Series ENGLE cams are Hydraulic Rollers that are the very latest technology in performance cam design. (2001 edit)
Utilizing the INVERSE FLANK on the opening ramp with a conventional flank on the closing ramp of the cam lobe.
The result is very high acceleration off the seat with a more gentle down side for better valve dynamics, more rpm capability, plus much more power overall with more area under the lift curve. "
I posted earlier that Jack Engle was a good friend of Dick Jones- I'm not going to draw you a picture...

Using and inverse flank profile Is about the only way to outperform a HFT in these duration ranges
and no way can a chevy grind HFT compete with HR or .904 HFT grind

Our resident crower lurker can also be helpful​

 

[Wietse]

Is the inverse flank profile a type with the ramps very rounded instead of flattened?

 

[wyrmrider]

think about grinding a cam with an 18 inch wheel
you almost cannot get better than a flat flank for either a FT or a Roller
now think of that roller and the side thrust the cam is putting on it
there is a limit on how you can accelerate the lifter
you can go to a larger base circle and larger wheel on your lifter like the top fuel guys...
The inverse flank is ground with a smaller wheel with the flank of the cam dipped in so you get more up and less side thrust- this is for roller only so let's not get too off topic
you can have better off the seat and after the Indy program better closing dynamics with the same duration

You have a great cam if it turns out that it works with your compression and also with your gears, converter, weight, driving needs etc
time for a road test- good break in oil
what are you doing with the retainers?
and that stripe on the top of the stem looks wide so time to check the geometry

 

[Wietse]

Understood on the inverse flank idea, yeah i can imagen the side load on a roller when a flat flank is coming up.

I am still far away from a road test, the engine needs to come out to do some work.
I found a header cracked which i cannot repair in place, instead i will go with new headers.
But as to get the headers out i need to remove and loosen so much i will pull the whole engine to do detailing on engine and engine bay.
While the engine is out i can repair some damaged threads on the header fasteners and get some other stuff done as well before the engine goes back in with new engine mounts etc.
Break-in oil not required as the cam has been in there for years now. (just has been running with 14* advance....)

The wear pattern seems nicely centered on the valve stem....
The with has obviously to do with the travel distance the little roller wheel rolls across between a closed and opened valve.
This could be reduced by bringing the rocker shaft up with shims, correct?

I still need to check the PV clearance, there fore i will get some checking springs and remove the springs from cyl #1 and see where and what the tight spot is going to be.
While the springs are off i will see if i can get them checked for tension/force to see if they are actually suitable for the application.

The OEM springs supposed to have a spring compression of 100-110 lbs when closed and 236-256 lbs when valve is open.
So i assume the currently installed springs should have a bit more tension than OEM. (assuming the springs were replaced for aftermarket ones to match this cam)


Then i can also check what i need for some proper valve spring retainers and keepers and change them for the correct size.
Also check the springs for free height and distortion before reusing.
Then valve train should be done and dusted: Brain surgery completed

 

[wyrmrider]

The wear pattern seems nicely centered on the valve stem....
That's not the goal - goal is narrow pattern

This could be reduced by bringing the rocker shaft up with shims, correct?
yes
go here and read all 4 tech articles for starters
http://www.b3racingengines.com/techpages/MoparRockerArmGeometry4.asp

https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/rocker-arms.158778/

I'd e-mail engle and ask for spring specs (give the size of the valve pockets in your heads) and their grind numbers
If you can't find their e-mail post up and I'll give them a call for you

http://dvorakmachine.com/tech_RockerGeometry.shtml
shaft rockers are more complicated
couple of good hints here like checking stem height
but goal is to have rocker arm line through shaft and roller at 90 degrees to the valve (parallel to the retainer) at half lift

https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/b3-racing-engines-geometry-kit.381432/

 

[Wietse]

Some good and interesting material to read through, thx!
Now i am scared though, before i believed someone took the time and materials to set up this engine properly for some drag racing.
Now i am getting more the feeling they slapped it together to make it work and went to the track.
Anyway i will be dismantling all of it anyway so i will put it back the right way.

To measure the valve recess in the cylinder head i need to remove it first.
I will measure it all up, get the valve springs specs and see where we are at.
Then get in contact with Engle to seek advice, i did not see any email address.

but goal is to have rocker arm line through shaft and roller at 90 degrees to the valve (parallel to the retainer) at half lift

Indeed, that is the aim as explained in the tech article.
Never gave it any thought that the valve motion actually also could suffer badly from a too high acceleration/deceleration.

I am not aiming to get the last drop of horse power out of it but i do want to get a good and reliable setup to enjoy for the years to come.

Edit: What type/idea of shims/spacers would be best to use to raise the rocker shaft?
This?: http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...XM=&searchmode=partnumber&page=3&partid=10406

Guess i could contact Hughes as well to ask for advice regarding valve springs, as i can see there is all i need on their website.
If i need springs as well i can order everything through them.

 

[wyrmrider]

Use B3 for shims he really knows what he is doing
but if you want to contact Hughes OK but get a second opinion
ditto on the Valve Springs
when you contact Engle and Hughes on springs give them your installed height
however that could change with new retainers
They need diameter (from the cup- perhaps you can see if current springs fit tight)
Height
and cam specs
Hughes does not make springs- none do
ask the forum what springs work best
Me- I use Isky just because
but PAC and other quality springs are out there
also LOTS OF JUNK and "one size fits all" solutions
watch for BS and BVVC
you can decide on low pressure dual springs like Isky 6005 set up tall
or Beehive
since you have to change retainers you can look outside the box
start a new thread
while you are at it check seal to retainer
(or keepers if they stick out the bottom of retainer)
Since you are going to pull down and check everything you have time to check
AS Dorvack said check that the stem heights are reasonably close to same height- just use a long straight edge
what stem seals? Viton are best as center two exhausts get hot on a MOPAR
You are really luck that something did not get bent running both stock HP spring???
and all that advance.
And thanks again for all those measurements

Yellow Rose (YR) (usually on FABO) posted something new to me and great idea!
I mentioned that I usually use the .050 down from the nose on unknown cams.
YR has observed that you do not need to be exactly .050 down!
Just where the cam is most active.
So we would just take the lobe height and set his dial indicator down .050 or most anything
roll the cam over once measure on the upmark degree wheel number
measure on the down to your dial indicator setting, note the degrees
divide by two
convert from 90 degree wheel to 180 if necessary
done
have to try it

THANKS YR
ps
YR has a great reputation on tuning high compression problem children

 

[Wietse]

I have no idea what these springs are, they might be stock HP, they might be some aftermarket.
I left the stock spring tensions in my previous post as a reference, one would expect the ones installed now are to match the camshaft and will have a higher tension than stock. (probably required more tension for this cam)
I will be back home in 3 weeks if al goes well,3 weeks work in Singapore.
When i get back home i will get on these valve springs and measure everything there is to measure and get some tension readings hopefully.
I might get away with just some correct size valve retainers and keepers.

I will order some checking springs for a start to work with and get the PV clearance.
In the meantime can do some research on the needed parts to get this setup properly.

I can send all collected data an email to B3 for some advice.
They might be able to get me a full package to sort out the spring retainers and shims and get the rocker shaft at the correct height.
For me in Europe, it becomes very painful when ordering from different places due to shipping and import charges. $$$

Once i got everything disassembled i will know for sure what i have and what i need, there are to many variables to make a plan for now.
But for sure, this story will get a tale!!

I also would like to thank all of you again for this amazing help and support you guys provided!
There was a lot to learn for me, and possible other readers/future readers and i have gained a lot of know how about cams and valve train components.
Thanks for all your patience, i am hoping you guys stick around and watch my back as i go on with the story.

 

[wyrmrider]

looking foreword to it
I'll be back in LA mid September and will find a reason to visit Engle's new (10 years ago) shop
do look into other springs
Beehives can really cut your spring/retainer weight
although I have mostly used dual springs with dampner even on mild builds- but lots more work but where reliability was paramount

 

[Wietse]

I read up about the beehive springs, thought it was a brand.
Yeah i can see the benefits of these springs, if i have to change springs that could be a good option.
Although they recommend knowing the valve diameter to determine the right spring, and i have no idea if the valves are stock or oversized.

I think that if my current springs are to be found with the right spring tension for the cam, free-height is ok and are not distorted i can reuse them and install them with the right retainers.
Getting the geometry sorted out is more important to me.

I don't understand why Engle has no email adress, for me it would be much easier to write things down in an email.
Calling them will end up with them throwing names and numbers at me where i have no clue about

Edit: I just send an email to Hughes, explained my situation and asked if they still have a cam card or any other information which includes required springs/tension etc.
With a bit of luck they can provide this and i have some reference to hold on to.

 

[Wietse]

This is also a bit weird:
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...VmFsdmUgU3ByaW5nIFJldGFpbmVycw==&partid=29842

It mentions these retainers O.D. is 1.400" but can be used on valve springs with an O.D. of 1.437" - 1.550".
So, for some reason it is not uncommon to have a smaller retainer O.D. compared with the valve spring...

For example this kit:
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...Y2sp&level1=VmFsdmUgU3ByaW5ncw==&partid=10271

The spring they use here, HUG 1106, has an O.D. of 1.540" while the retainer HUG 1201 has an O.D. of 1.375"

I had checked mine, my retainer is also 1.375" O.D. and the spring O.D. is 1.540".
Installed height is about 1.920".


Some interesting read about valve springs:
http://www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ215_18-38.pdf

 

[wyrmrider]

are your current retainers steel or chrome moly? (are you using the ones in the link?)
I've never used ones that small on springs that large
the newer thinner chrome molly ones are really nice compared to the heavy pieces of yesteryear
HAVE A GREAT TRIP

 

[Wietse]

My retainers look same finish as on the website, there it states Chrome Moly, similar as the ones in the link. (could be what is installed)
I had a reply from Hughes Engines and they unfortunatly told me the camshaft info given on the website is all they have, so no full spec cam card or so.
They mentioned they recommend the 1106 springs for this camshaft
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...Y2sp&level1=VmFsdmUgU3ByaW5ncw==&partid=10270

My springs actually look similar, also equipped with this damper spring.
If these springs were used i should see just below 150# of spring pressure in closed position and 335-340# at full valve lift. (my lift on the valves should be 0.565"/0.571")
I will reply Hughes and ask about using these small retainers, and why not using a same size retainer.
It will be reducing weight obviously, it is hard to believe it is not safe for use if they sell these kits like that.

Edit: This is what it says on their website:


Tech Notes: The change in installed height listed above tells you approximately how much the installed spring height will be affected by using the listed retainer vs. an average of several stock retainers.

Valve spring retainers do not need to be the same diameter as the valve spring used. The retainer OD should be approximately 1/8" smaller than the OD of the valve spring. The retainer should also fit easily onto the valve spring, but not so loosely that the retainer is sloppy on the spring. When using a retainer that offers more installed height than normal, make sure there is a minimum of 0.010" clearance between the rocker arm and the retainer when the valve is in the closed position.

Guess i just need to check the locater shoulder on the retainer that locates the spring in the center, i think this will be too small as the spring is allowed to sit slightly "off-center" from the retainer.


After reading those articles about valve train geometry and how poor geometry costs power and valve guides i did snap a couple of pictures of how the pushrod/adjuster angle is and where the rocker roller starts and ends up at valve full open.
You can see the roller sits on the exhaust side of the valve stem in full valve lift position so yeah, it needs to be raised.
As how i understand, when going roller rockers raising the rocker shaft is a must but was never done.
Raising the shaft will also increase the angle on the push rod and adjuster, which looks ok a.t.m. but obviously will become worse after raising the shaft.
A matter of give and take, the best i could do on the push rod side is to install the longest possible push rods to minimize the adjuster length, will see what it works out to be.

Can anyone explain what is the score with these valve spring retainers "valve stem size".
Because my valve stems are 0.372", which are stock size for a 440.
But looking at different websites and catalogs, most spring retainer sizes mentioned are 11/32" (0.344") and 3/8" (0.375").
Same with the keepers/locks, what size should be used on my valve stem size?
I assume the 11/32", they will leave some space between both keeper halves which is quite normal.
The 3/8" size should be slightly too big for my application, right?

 

[wyrmrider]

First the locator on the bottom of the spring needs to be checked, you do nto want your springs dancing around
.372 .375 no real difference
you need to ask if they want the keepers butting or not butting together when installed
and make sure your keepers (square or round) match the valves
and keepers 7 or 10 degrees match the retainers
make a note of how far above the retainer the valve tip sets and write it down somewhere just incase you need to use + or minus height keepers or retainers in the future
make a note of the clearance between the rocker and retainer and write it down with one of your pics
dbl check the pushrod cup to rocker clearance- write it down
stick a machinest rule on the retainer and see if it passes through the middle of the shaft at half lift
EDIT
you are using the top of the retainer only to line up the rule
you have to adjust for the stem height

 

[Wietse]

Lots of good tips, thx!!
All things you mentioned are clear and i will note it down to do this before ripping everything apart.

The bottom locator for the spring, is this part of the cylinderhead?
Like a machined nose that centers the spring?
As far as i could see there is no cup.

For the valve tip height versus retainer height, if my measurements are correct i have 0.040” higher spring installed height compared to the HUG 1106 valve springs. (1.920 vs 1.880 as per hughes)

I did get another email back from hughes and they told me that the “offcenter” movement of the spring is no problem and that once the engine is running it will center itself.
Very sorry but i find that hard to believe, of that is the case why do i find the springs sitting offcenter after shutting it down?

 

[wyrmrider]

spring cup can be a well in the head or a steel cup or a steel disc with a raised center to locate the inner of the spring
the important thing is to keep the bottom of the spring from jumping around which changes the loads on the sides of the valve and prematurely wears the guides and does not do much for spring harmonics either

Take a look at your second picture
you can see the valve tip between the roller and the retainer
you want the tip/roller contact to be directly through the center of your rocker shaft at half lift
just use the retainer as a guide for your eyeball and machinist rule after rotating the crank to where the valve is half open
you will end up with the narrowest stripe across the valve tip
and the rocker will be angled up at valve closed the same degrees as angled down at valve open.
Most cams are designed with this geometry
the Rocker has the most leverage at 90 degrees
it has the most valve lift per unit of cam lift at this point
your rocker ratio is maximum at this point
life is good
With a shaft rocker you have to raise or lower the shaft to get correct geometry
just adjusting pushrod or adjuster makes geometry worse
trying to get the roller in the center of the valve by screwing with pushrod length has unintended consequences
the only way to fix that is to change rocker arm length or move shaft
and being in the center - as long as you are not way off is not important
having a narrow wear pattern on the valve tip, where ever it is is what's important
cheers

 

[Wietse]

Thx again.

So, from my understanding i will have to raise the rocker shaft with shims.
Without measuring it is quite safe to say it must be raised as currently there are no shims installed and when going with a roller rocker it is a must to raise it.

As can be seen on the pictures, when the valve is closed the roller sits a bit off center towards the rocker shaft, but when at full lift the roller sits on the exhaust side of the center.
But, it seems the distance at full lift is further away from the center compared to when closed.
So here also, according me raising the rocker shaft will narrow this down, although might end up a little off center. But this should be ok.

Can’t wait to get after it when i get home

 

[wyrmrider]

U got it
if you have not done it go to B3 racing engines website and read all 4 tech articles
lots of info on the web on the geometry
however lots is (and until recently most)was wrong including most of the major cam grinders and rocker arm vendors

 

[Wietse]

I read all those articles indeed.
I did not figure it out because i am so smart, i was just smart enough to follow your advice to read up and learn.

Also those other links posted and other treads i found online (FBBO FABO) about reactions people got from tech support or info on the websites of major cam grinders is shocking to say the least.
After reading up and you got i figured out you do not expect these answers and advises to come from the big cam company’s!

But just wondering, what height increase are we talking?
Can i at least try first with a shim kit (0.020” and 0.040”) to raise it or are we generally talking much more?
Because instead of dropping, say, 0.100” of shims in there it think it would be better to get some more solid stuff like B3 is selling.
Adding 0.040-0.060” shims would be not a big thing i believe, right?