Front 10" drum wheel studs - Dorman 610-090?

[cudak888]

I'm presently dealing with this on my '68 Satellite:

Looks like someone probably overtorqued these things at one time; at least three of the remaining four don't tighten smoothly either, and are probably ready to snap off.

At any rate, I could care less about keeping the reverse threads. I intend to cut the swedged edge off the drum, press the old studs out of the hub my hydraulic press, and replace them with new ones, along with a new one-piece 10" drum from Rock Auto for the meantime. Even though I'm loading up on parts for the disc brake conversion, I want to get a feel for the suspension first before I start swapping parts, hence, the 10" drum setup gets put back together for the meantime.

That said, I did some searching on the forum, and this thread (http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/wheel-studs-for-62-10-rear-drums.79344/) recommended the Dorman 610-090 for the rear axles. However, I have yet to find any info whether this also applies to '68 front hubs.

Anyone have experience with this? A part number?

Thanks!

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

FYI, that 610-090 is a GM stud, but seemed to work for the fellow with the '64 Belvedere. I did an eBay search for 1968 Belvedere wheel studs and came up with these part numbers, and the following descriptions from Dorman for each. Whether these are correct is another story:

• Dorman 610-039 - For front 10" or 11" drums, Kelsey-Hayes or Motor Wheel type, RH thread - 1/2" 20tpi, 0.625" knurl diameter, 0.719" shoulder length, 1-5/8" (1.625") under head length
• Dorman 610-103 and 103.1 - For rear drums (10" presumably), RH thread - 1/2" 20tpi, 0.673" knurl diameter, 0.563" shoulder length, 1-19/32" (1.594") under head length (as noted in the '64 Belvedere thread, did not work on a factory application; 610-090 was used instead)
• Dorman 610-122 - For front 10" or 11" drums, Budd type, RH thread- 1/2" 20tpi, 0.650" knurl diameter, 0.625" shoulder length, 1-9/16" (1.563") under head length
• Dorman 610-132 and 132.1 - For front 11" drums, Motor Wheel type, RH thread - 1/2" 20tpi, 0.650" knurl diameter, 0.688" shoulder length, 1-5/8" (1.625") under head length (specs shared with 132.1)
• Dorman 610-136 and 136.1 - For front disc brakes, RH thread - 1/2" 20tpi, 0.637" knurl diameter, 0.875" shoulder length, 1-3/4" (1.75") under head length

And, for comparison's sake:

• Dorman 610-090 - RH thread, 1/2" 20tpi, 0.624" knurl diameter, 0.469" shoulder length, 1-5/16" (1.313") under head length

Honestly, I'm a bit confused that it specifies K-H and Budd type drum brakes individually along with "front disc brakes;" especially as I thought the Budd and KH distinction only came into play with the '65 Budd (C-body only, to my knowledge) and KH 4-piston disc brakes. If so, they may be incorrectly mislabeled as such, or labeled for multiple applications. I still don't know why Motor Wheel is mentioned as well, unless the Spyder wheels need a different stud.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

Pulled the drum and hub today.

The drum on the left is a Centric 123.63038 replacement I got from Rock Auto - unlike the original, it's a single cast piece. On the right, the original. Centric also offers the original cast-and-stamped-and-welded original style as 123.63002. (In fact, one of the two drums shipped to me was a 123.63002 improperly boxed as a 123.63038 - Rock Auto rectified this for me with no problem).

The new drum may appear different, but the general proportions are essentially the same, with exception to the thickness at the wheel face. This may marginally affect the wheel spacing outwards (by a piddly 3mm or so), but is more of a concern to me in regards to buying the right studs:

So I did some measurements:

Hub depth is 0.48"

Because I didn't want to start cutting swedges, I'll assume the surface of the stamped steel drum is probably in the 0.1" or 0.08" range. Doesn't really matter for my needs, it may for yours. Take it into account if you're following the sizing I list below.

The new drum, on the other hand, is around 0.27:"

Stud length on the outer side of the drum is 1" exactly, with about 0.85" of it threaded:

With this in mind, and assuming I don't want the knurled area to contact the drum, I think I'll be safe trying to source a bolt with a knurled area of 0.48" and a threaded area of 1.27", thus lengthening the bolt slightly for the new drum thickness, and also shortening the knurled area so there's no chance I'll wind up bottoming out with any rim design. If I were using the old design, I'd shoot for 0.48"/1".

At either rate, the measurement is similar enough that the Dorman 610-090 philosophy would seem to hold true for the front as well as the rear.

Granted, I haven't considered diameter yet. Need to check the new drums; can't really check the hubs until I start cutting the swedges and pressing studs out.

-Kurt

 

[Gil Brannan]

Messed with this several years ago while drag racing my superbee and r/t. when I pressed out the old studs to put in the 3 inch moroso studs, I distorted the flat surface of the drum. The factory studs arre swegged on with the brake drum on the hub. So it was all one piece. I wound up using a cut off wheel and cutting the exposed studs off and then pressing the studs off. Saves the drum. If replacing the drum(s), order a replacement drum for the rear axle---at that time it was cheaper, did not need the whole hub and drum. Used aftermarket studs with the orignal hub and new drum with the race wheel. Still using the 10 inch drums on the frt.

 

[cudak888]

I am aware of the swedged studs and the need to cut them free of the drum before attempting removal, already mentioned this in the first post.

Not sure I understand why the rears should be ordered as well, unless you mean ordering drums without the hub. Far as I know, you can't get the two as an assembly anymore, much less source a new hub on its own (unless you're working with a Chevy, in which case, welcome to the buffet of Chinesium reproductions galore).

Can you tell me what diameter knurling were on your Moroso studs, or what part number you ordered? That would help.

-Kurt

 

[Gil Brannan]

I am aware of the swedged studs and the need to cut them free of the drum before attempting removal, already mentioned this in the first post.

Not sure I understand why the rears should be ordered as well, unless you mean ordering drums without the hub. Far as I know, you can't get the two as an assembly anymore, much less source a new hub on its own (unless you're working with a Chevy, in which case, welcome to the buffet of Chinesium reproductions galore).

Can you tell me what diameter knurling were on your Moroso studs, or what part number you ordered? That would help.

-Kurt

 

[Gil Brannan]

I am aware of the swedged studs and the need to cut them free of the drum before attempting removal, already mentioned this in the first post.

Not sure I understand why the rears should be ordered as well, unless you mean ordering drums without the hub. Far as I know, you can't get the two as an assembly anymore, much less source a new hub on its own (unless you're working with a Chevy, in which case, welcome to the buffet of Chinesium reproductions galore).

Can you tell me what diameter knurling were on your Moroso studs, or what part number you ordered? That would help.

-Kurt

its been awhile since ive done this. dont know if the info is handy. the rear drums were ordered seperatly because i did not want to buy the entire assy (hub/drum/studs). since removing the studs also releases the drum--maybe some distortion, i just replaced the drum. new moroso studs in the hubs, install hubs, then with new brakes, install frt drums and go. Many places have the new parts--drums i mean, that are right at mininum specs,so if u turn them they are over sized and no good. this way if u need new drums u buy just a drum. Also did this on my dad's 71 Charger.

 

[cudak888]

Dorman slipped me a ringer this time. My box was marked 610-090, but the studs inside the box are 610-514's for a modern Ford Freestar or Mercury Monterey. Thought they looked wrong. Blech.

Tiny knurls on the late-model Ford part - 0.555" in diameter vs. the original's 0.625". Doesn't really matter one way or another, because it's not what I ordered in the first place:

Back to the auto parts store tomorrow to see if the Dorman 98147.1 will fit. My bet is that I'll have to file the knurling off the drum area.

At any rate, this was also my first experience trying to cut and press swaged studs out of a drum. After today's experience, this is my take on the folklore that pops up here on the forum about the topic:

A: Anyone who says they've been able to cut a factory swaged stud and then hammer the stud out probably did it with lumberjack-worthy slam and a 5-pound sledge. If they tell you they were able to re-use the drum with this method too, they're full of more baloney than your local delicatessen. I didn't believe in this method to begin with and avoided it in favor of using my hydraulic press. The stamped steel drum shell bent on the very first pump of the ram, as the other swaged studs pulled the whole thing down. Out of curiosity, I cut ALL the studs out and tried pressing it from one stud again - the drum bent pretty spectacularly (not that I doubted it - but at this point, one should simply center the ram with the hub center to get it out):

Point is, unless you have something supporting the hub - not the drum - from the back, you're going to bend it, period. And unless you have something that can support the hub level AND allow one stud to get pushed out, you're probably going to get the thing cockeyed under the ram and bend something anyway.

Save yourself a big headache and just order a new, beefy, one-piece cast drum, cut all the old studs off, and press the hub out from the center with a press. Quick, clean, simple, and efficient.

B. Maybe I'm the idiot, but I can't find anyone selling a 1/2" hole saw (at least, one made for metal and not tile). Have you tried Googling for one recently? I did the one circular cut shown here with an ancient 3/8" hole saw, and I can't even find one of those easily. Since I disposed of the idea of saving the other studs (not that I really intended to do so anyway), I just cut them all off with an angle-grinder/death wheel. Enough with the hole saw nonsense, bring on the glorious metal carnage!

C. Anyone who says you can cut the swaged studs out and save the drum at all is also full of baloney. Face it, if you've still got swaged studs, you probably have the original drums and are long overdue for new ones. Sure, it's probably possible, but you're going to spend more money in a proper swage cutter and there's still the possibility that you'll bend the drum anyway when you press out the center of the hub. Unless you have no other choice, just get one of those new one-piece drums and do it the smart way - that is, the way that doesn't leave the outcome partially to chance.

D. There's nothing easy about getting studs out either. No, you can't sledge these out - not unless you have no pride in your work, want to risk buying a new hub, or don't mind possibly sending the hub across the garage like a freakin' missile. You have to support the bottom edge of the hub, even in a hydraulic press, and I went an extra step by bolting the hub down to a plate of steel below it to prevent it from going cockeyed under pressure (and thus preventing it from becoming a hydraulically-assisted freakin' missile):

But, hey, if you're a slob with a big bank account and a few windows to break, go ahead - sledge it. I didn't tell you to do it.

Going to post a bit more in my Satellite build thread later this evening: http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...g-fat-engine-swap.96118/page-8#post-910497185

-Kurt

 

[SublimeSixpack]

The composite drums like you have are pretty flimsy.
That's what came on my '68 Coronet, I took them off and threw them in the trash and did a disc. conversion.

On another matter, I hope the center register of the new Centric drums you purchased are of the correct diameter. The Centric drums I bought for my '69 Super Bee had a center register that was too large! Sloppy fit! Couldn't use them. Needs to be a snug fit onto the hub. Just something you may want to check before going any further.

 

[cudak888]

The composite drums like you have are pretty flimsy.
That's what came on my '68 Coronet, I took them off and threw them in the trash and did a disc. conversion.

On another matter, I hope the center register of the new Centric drums you purchased are of the correct diameter. The Centric drums I bought for my '69 Super Bee had a center register that was too large! Sloppy fit! Couldn't use them. Needs to be a snug fit onto the hub. Just something you may want to check before going any further.

A disc conversion is in the pipeline for the Satellite too, but I'm still short a set of tubular UCA's (I want them mainly so I don't need to run eccentric UCA bushings), the replacement master cylinder, and a prop valve. That, and I want to get a feel for the stock suspension before modification - especially as it's the time to make the decision between stock or stiffer torsion bars too. Already have Koni shocks for it, and will probably put them on first to judge the overall difference.

The Centric units I bought to replace the originals are one-piece deals. This is the first time I've been genuinely impressed by Chinesium over the original alternative. This thing is NICE, and the center register fit is as perfect as anyone could ever ask for:

-Kurt

 

[SublimeSixpack]

 

[Darthomas]

Ummm, I went through a bad period with a Dart, where I regularly had drum/hub issues on 9 inch brakes and re-used, "re-swaged"
combinations of both, using old studs and nothing more than hand tools, spacers, deep sockets, and a good concrete floor.
Support is critical to not warping the face of the drum!
I have some wheel stud issues going on right now in this 66.

 

[cudak888]

Ummm, I went through a bad period with a Dart, where I regularly had drum/hub issues on 9 inch brakes and re-used, "re-swaged"
combinations of both, using old studs and nothing more than hand tools, spacers, deep sockets, and a good concrete floor.
Support is critical to not warping the face of the drum!
I have some wheel stud issues going on right now in this 66.

Is this what your 9" SBP A-body hub looked like? This is what my '69 Valiant looks like (photo borrowed from here):

And the 10" hub:

Unlike the 10" drum hub, I see that the studs do not have a flat area around them on the hub, so you'd be supporting the hub body partially on the flat surface, and partially on the chamfer. And even then, there's the possibility that the deep socket will shift when you hit it, requiring a reset of everything all over again - if the drum doesn't bend in the process. Honestly, there are so many opportunities for this to go horribly wrong that I really don't see the point in trying to save the drum - especially if tools are limited (I understand that not everyone has access to a hydraulic press. However, it makes the job a hell of a lot easier and cleaner).

What are the issues you're running into with it now? Loose-fitting knurls? (P.S. I'm not trying to question your mechanical abilities, but I am curious what's plaguing it).

-Kurt

 

[Darthomas]

Is this what your 9" SBP A-body hub looked like? This is what my '69 Valiant looks like (photo borrowed from here):

Unlike the 10" drum hub, I see that the studs do not have a flat area around them on the hub, so you'd be supporting the hub body partially on the flat surface, and partially on the chamfer. And even then, there's the possibility that the deep socket will shift when you hit it, requiring a reset of everything all over again - if the drum doesn't bend in the process. Honestly, there are so many opportunities for this to go horribly wrong that I really don't see the point in trying to save the drum - especially if tools are limited (I understand that not everyone has access to a hydraulic press. However, it makes the job a hell of a lot easier and cleaner).

What are the issues you're running into with it now? Loose-fitting knurls? (P.S. I'm not trying to question your mechanical abilities, but I am curious what's plaguing it).

-Kurt

Never had any problems with the studs or drums on the 65 Dart GT I was driving at the time, but I had awful tires that ate bearings and hubs. And yes that's the drum, and yes, it's a trick to keep the support of a deep socket centered.

I was poor at the time.
The re-swaged studs I did myself never had a problem.

The 66 Belvedere I'm driving the last few weeks had one I found broke off in the wheel cover on the driver side, and one that spins, another that spins on the passenger front.
These are studs I had put in professionally at a brake shop.

 

[cudak888]

Never had any problems with the studs or drums on the 65 Dart GT I was driving at the time, but I had awful tires that ate bearings and hubs. And yes that's the drum, and yes, it's a trick to keep the support of a deep socket centered.

I can imagine!

I was poor at the time.
The re-swaged studs I did myself never had a problem.

More power to you for making it work. How did you re-swage them?

The 66 Belvedere I'm driving the last few weeks had one I found broke off in the wheel cover on the driver side, and one that spins, another that spins on the passenger front.
These are studs I had put in professionally at a brake shop.

The modern "professional" only knows how to source parts from an interchange manual, making them useless for anything that's essentially hot-rodding (e.g., finding different parts that fit). They don't get it when the part doesn't physically work - nor do they have time to booger through the Dorman cross-reference trying to find something perfectly suited to the job.

The old adage applies: If you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself.

-Kurt

 

[Darthomas]

I reversed the installation process sort of, but also used nuts to pull on the stud to seat it. Then supported underneath while hammering the crimped area back together with a different size deep well socket, then peened them a few places around.
Then I swore off ever again buying any of Coker Tire's reproduction redline radials made in Mexico, which were not true or round in ANY direction.

 

[cudak888]

Got some studs at the auto parts store. At far left, Dorman 98130.1, which I believe is for the rear. It's larger, and doesn't fit. Center, Dorman 98147.1, and at far right, original stud. Surprisingly enough, it looks as if Dorman's stock images are actually accurate to the part itself for each stud variant. Props to them for that.

The 98147.1 is identical to the original. This is a good thing and a bad thing: It fits the hub perfectly. The bad thing is that the knurls stick out to the drum. This is less concerning because of the thickness of the new drum. After looking at Rock Auto, it looks like the 610122 (a.k.a. 2460614, 6101221) would be a possible option with a smaller knurl. Too late now, and getting the car on the ground today was more of a concern than waiting for the right studs.

At first, I figured that the knurls wouldn't even be an issue on the new drum - they fell through the holes:

But the hub and the drum bolt circle are off just enough that the drum wouldn't slide on once the hub was prepared. I wound up tightening the drum to the hub with the lug nuts, which stuck them together pretty well. Not what I wanted. At this point, I really didn't care; getting the car back on the ground was more important.

And so now I have a new drum stuck to the original hub. And despite disconnecting the entire brake system, bench bleeding the master cylinder in the car, and bleeding the whole system after that, the pedal action still feels like a sponge. My '69 Valiant with a nearly-identical (using a '73 master) manual 4-wheel 9" drum setup feels far more confident and effective.

I'm not bothering with the drums any more than I need to at this point. For all the money I'm shoving into getting the drums working, I could put $500 to the remaining bits I'm missing for my disc conversion.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

FYI, my idea of the 610-090's was all wrong to start with. 98147.1 on left; 610-090 on right:

Now if I could find one with the specs of the with 4mm of the knurled shoulder flat, I'd be happy.

But I got my upper control arms. Figuring this out will have to wait for when these 10" brakes make their way onto my '69 Valiant.

-Kurt

 

[5wndwcpe]

Thanks for the write up.

 

[furyus]

I read where someone drilled the head of the studs off from the back of the drum/hub. Then drove the studs out through the front. It sounds like it will work, but I've never done it myself.