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Holley EFI

__Larsson____

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So im thinking of getting my 70 Charger EFI next year and im gonna get the EFI fuel tank and such. So my question is if there is any of u have done this with yours?

Is there a complete kit or do i buy the tank kit separate?
 
I have done several (73 Cuda, 70 Challenger, 69 Ply Wagon, 52 B3B) and will be doing my 70 RR and 71 Charger.

There might be a "kit" but I would tell you that it is better to shop all of the individual parts such as the tank. Figure out what EFI system you want to use and then for the tank, look at Tanks Inc. Get their tank, sender and pump; I've used several of these and they are great.

You will have to run new fuel lines, install an O2 sensor, etc. It is not real hard, but does take some time.
 
Ive done a number of long write ups on this subject and have installed a few different systems (Fitech 4bbl, Firtech tri power, F&B 6 pack with FAST controller, F&B with Holley HP controller). It isn't rocket science but can be pretty confusing if you don't have any experience with it. Here is a write I did for someone else.

What system you use is entirely up to you, each has its advantages and limitations. I am not sure what your experience is with EFI, so if I say something you know, my apologies.

There are a number of main issues here that require consideration and ultimately make a decision on, however in general is comes down to the EFI type, system, the fuel system, and the electrical system.

THE EFI TYPE - There are 2 types of EFI, direct port injection (DPI) and throttle body injection (TBI).

1. Direct port injection uses a modified intake or one purposely made to accept injectors and a fuel rail. These are very efficient and are used in all modern cars today. The intake remains dry meaning that no fuel enters the intake itself, rather fuel is sprayed directly into each cylinder.


2. Throttle body injection (AKA TBI) has injectors installed into the throttle body itself (usually with some other sensors as well) and sprays fuel into the intake much like a carb would. They are popular because you can use the same intake you used with a carb.


THE EFI SYSTEM - there are as you have discovered many different systems on the market, so much so that it makes it very difficult to make a coherent decision and given that none of them are exactly cheap, no one wants to make the wrong decision. In general, there are basically 2 types of EFI;


1. Basic (aka self-learning): This would be like Fitech or a FAST EZ system. In essence you bolt it on, connect the wires, answer some questions into the handheld and go. The system will learn as you drive. As far as I know, there are not any self-learning EFI direct port injection systems, all I have seen are throttle body designs. It’s worth noting that pretty much all EFI systems you look at will have a self-learning feature, however in a basic system that is all you have/get and you cannot make any changes directly. This is not an issue on a stock or mild engine, however an engine with a big cam, high compression, etc. may not do well with a basic system because the computer cannot tune correctly.

PROs - easy to install and connect, relatively inexpensive. Computer/controller is typically very small and easy to mount/hide and the wiring is very simple, Fitech needs 4 wires to run.

CONs - not as efficient as a direct port system, any problem affects the entire system (throttle body). In general, they are not as efficient or responsive because they normally only control fuel although there may be some systems that can integrate spark control.


2. Advanced - This would be like a Holly HP or some of the FAST systems wherein you have a fairly large computer and have to tune the computer with a laptop and perhaps a dyno. An advanced system can be used on a TBI or DPI type system, but is always found on DPI systems.

PROs - very comprehensive and able to be tuned to any engine setup and/or performance goal. Much more tunable and configurable. Typically, these systems are set up to control spark as well as fuel in addition to the fuel pump, fans, and AC. Some of these systems also can integrate into dash mounted control panels that will provide a wide range of data and even show various gauges. They are much more versatile overall and can control a wide range of functions, additionally they allow you to install specific tunes for specific conditions and can adapt to changes to the engine.

CONs - More expensive generally, computer is significantly larger and can be a challenge to mount in a classic car but certainly not impossible. They do require more understanding to make work well and in ideal situations you would want to tune the vehicle on a dyno, however this is not mandatory, it just takes longer to do it manually.

THE FUEL SYSTEM. This is the most discussed and misunderstood aspect of EFI. There is a lot of misinformation roaming around the internet and on forums, but more so there are a lot of DIY people out there who make something work initially and claim success, however in many cases these cobbled together systems are fraught with issues and problems that in many cases case people to hate EFI.

The biggest issue with EFI fuel systems revolves around the return line. There are systems on the market which are marketed with the “no return line required” statement. However, in almost everyone of them, once you get it and read the instructions you will find a statement saying “return line highly recommended”. While, it is possible to put a returnless system in, it is not optimal and comes with issues.

There are 3 types of EFI fuel systems out there;

1. Fuel command style systems – this is a system where a component is installed into usually the engine compartment where the fuel line from the normal fuel pump to the carb is rerouted to the fuel command system at low pressure. The command center turns the fuel into high pressure and a line is run from that to the EFI system. The return line from the EFI system is run back to the command center. The advantage of this system is that it is the least evasive system on the market, allows the standard fuel system to be used, and does not require return lines or a new fuel system. The down side to this type of system is that the command center is pretty large and does take up some room.

2. External fuel pump system – in this system, you have a fuel pump mounted under the car somewhere along with a pre and post filter. In most cases this requires new fuel lines (feed and return) and the stock fuel pump is removed and eliminated. The advantage of this system is that it is relatively easy to install, if the pump ever has issues it is easy to replace. The down side to this style is that the pumps tend to make some noise and they do not last as long because they get hot and of course they are subject to road damage.

3. Internal pump system – this is the most often used system and by far the most desirable. This places a high-pressure pump into the tank where it can remain cool as well as reduce a lot of the noise. The down side is that to replace them can some times be an issue depending on the application.

2 other issues involved here fuel lines and filters.

FUEL LINES – Fuel lines for an EFI system must be rated for a high pressure (EFI can run 60+ psi whereas a carb system runs around 7 psi). Steel lines will work as may aluminum lines (some manufacturers state aluminum cannot or should not be used), also steel braided or EFI rated nylon braided line). Of course, the appropriate ends must be used with whatever line is used.

FILTERS – EFI requires a very clean system and most systems demand that you use a 40-micron pre-filter and a 100-micron post filter. Failure to use the appropriate filter will result in the failure and potentially the destruction of the EFI system.

THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM. Many thinking about installing an EFI system do not think about the electrical system, however EFI demands clean steady power to operate correctly. The old 60 Amp alternator with original wring will most likely not suffice, or suffice for very long. It is usually recommended that at least a 100 Amp alternator be used, but to really know what to install, you need to determine what the electrical needs are.


There are other aspects of installing and using EFI but none of it is super difficult, it just takes some careful thought and approach.
 
I have installed 2 of the Holley Sniper kits that come with the electric pump and not a tank insert. You have to figure out a way to mount it out of the way of every thing. Other than that its not difficult. Basic hand tools and skills required and you must be able to read and breath. If you are here then you have both of those covered. One more thing.. Don't think you can use an existing piece of rubber hose. You need to replace it all with EFI rated hose. I made the mistake on a short piece and within 10 minutes it burst and it was a mess.
 
70 Charger, you can get a Tank from Tanks Inc, with in tank pump, spendy, but the only way to go.. 2 3/8's metal Fuel lines, 1 for feed and 1 for return.. Skip the TBI stuff and go straight to the Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4..
 
And, caveat emptor. The fuel and plumbing were more problematic. Anything ahead of the firewall was relatively easy. See my efi thread if you have lots of time.
 
Have Fitech and used external pump. Where I live, 110-120 daily temps. External fuel pump would vapor lock while running after about 20 minutes. Went to Aeromotive fuel tank w baffled in tank pump. Have had no problems with fuel since. Was actually an easy instal, everything is pre assembled, just use a rubber mallet to bend up the ears, install fittings and done. Fit perfect.
 
And, caveat emptor. The fuel and plumbing were more problematic. Anything ahead of the firewall was relatively easy. See my efi thread if you have lots of time.
Are you all fixed? Do you need to drop it off at Derwud's garage for a fix?
 
Catch can solved the fuel pissing. All is well.
 
I vote for going to Tanks Inc for the tank.... I got mine through a dealer of theirs for $100 off their listed price --- tank, sending unit, pump in one delivery
 
Don’ts: Rick’s Tanks El Paso.
Mopar Ed Central Valley.
 
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I have done several (73 Cuda, 70 Challenger, 69 Ply Wagon, 52 B3B) and will be doing my 70 RR and 71 Charger.

There might be a "kit" but I would tell you that it is better to shop all of the individual parts such as the tank. Figure out what EFI system you want to use and then for the tank, look at Tanks Inc. Get their tank, sender and pump; I've used several of these and they are great.

You will have to run new fuel lines, install an O2 sensor, etc. It is not real hard, but does take some time.
So the thing about the fuellines, Holley says 3/8s for the feed and 5/16s for the reaturn. The thing is that i really dont want to use rubber or plastic type of hoses, i would like to use stainles pipes like i have now. What do you think about that? Like these lines,https://www.classicindustries.com/product/1970/dodge/charger/parts/mf534b.html
so when the say 3/8s is that the inside of the pipe diameter?
 
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Are you saying that you already have 3/8 stainless lines? Hard lines are definitely better but you are going to have to connect the tank to the hard lines and then the connect the hard lines to the regulator/throttle body/fuel rail (whatever system you have). You can do this with EFI rated rubber lines and EFI clamps, I prefer to use Fragola series 8000 push lock AN fittings and there are many other fittings out there that can be used.
 
Are you saying that you already have 3/8 stainless lines? Hard lines are definitely better but you are going to have to connect the tank to the hard lines and then the connect the hard lines to the regulator/throttle body/fuel rail (whatever system you have). You can do this with EFI rated rubber lines and EFI clamps, I prefer to use Fragola series 8000 push lock AN fittings and there are many other fittings out there that can be used.
I dont know if the fuelline i have right now is 3/8 but ClassicIndustires sell 3/8 stainless, well i have to use some rubberhose from the tank to the pipe and from pipe to the EFI body. So you think that would work good?
 
Yes you will have to use some EFI rated rubber hose to go from the tank to the hard line and then from the hard line to where ever it needs to go on the engine. This is assuming you are using an in tank pump, if you are going to use an external mounted pump, you would also need to connect the pump to the hard line using some EFI rated hose; however this will also require you to cut the stainless line where you want to mount the pump and filter, then you will need to put a bead into the hard line end you just made by cutting the hard line (you MUST have a bead in the hardline or the hose will come off).

Putting a bead into stainless can be a PIA because it is hard. There are hard line to AN fitting adapters which use a compression fitting to grab the hard line that "might" work (I say might because stainless is pretty slick and I don't know if the brass sleeve will bite and seal on them under pressure). To put a bead into the now cut line, you will need a tubing bead roller; earls sells them for specific tubing sizes however most of these are not designed to work with stainless so this might be a problem.

I personally do not use stainless for my fuel lines, yes it looks nice but it is brittle and can be a pain to work with. I prefer mild steel which I buy in 25' rolls and then make/bend my own lines. The other option is to use Nicop which is Nickle Copper and it bends really easy (like with your hands), it is very easy to cut and to bead as well. I am not saying you can't do it with stainless, many people do but for me it is not worth the hassle. Pre-bent lines are nice but you are still going to need to modify them because they are setup to go to a mechanical fuel pump which is quite a ways from where you would typically feed an EFI system; however I do know some have done it this way and actually made it appear as thought the mechanical pump was still there but running the soft line in basically the same manner as it would be with a carb.
 
Oooh yeah im going for the in tank pump, tanks-inc-tcr9a-t but wouldnt i need to have the pipes with the bead when i have the pump in tank? the stainless might not be the best then but i dont want it to rust =P the Nickle Copper might be the wise choise then.
 
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