How hard should it be to turn over a fresh big block by hand?

[tag]

I just buttoned up the bottom end of my freshly machined, 0.030 over 440, and this piston/ring kit: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-KB237KTM030/

How hard should it be to turn over? It was a little easier yesterday, but after it sat in the shop all night it takes most my weight at the end of a 2' breaker bar to move the son of a bitch.

I have really no idea what to expect, since this is my first engine build.

 

[SUPERSTOCKRACER]

with or without sparkplugs in the motor???

 

[Jonnyuma]

HA! I was gonna ask the same thing. If its just an assembled short block, ie: no heads, it oughta spin pretty easily. If you used plenty of assembly lube (you did, right?), the only real friction should be coming from your properly -gapped rings (they are, right?). Even with the heads on it shouldn't take that much effort, all that big compression will squirt out the spark plug holes.

 

[tag]

Heads aren't on yet. I used motor oil, and lots of it. I guess I should get a better lubricant. It frees up after I get it to turn over a bit with the oil but at first it really sticks pretty damn hard.

The rings aren't gapless, they're factory gap rings (that's why I dropped the link). I didn't check them but they should be right. I could pull a piston and check the ring gaps.

I also called and asked my machinist (an old time racer, in the business over 30 years) he said "That's how they are, especially when you let them sit."

 

[Meep-Meep]

Seems to me my fresh 440 took about 65 ft/lbs to break loose but after I got it moving it wasn't too bad. Most of the friction is the rough cyl bores.

Did you turn your crank by hand after you torqued the mains? Crank only with nothing else attached. You should be able to move that by pulling on a counterweight with your finger. Again, it takes a bit to break the film of the oil.

Is the cam installed? That you should be able to break loose with your fingers.

 

[tag]

Yeah the crank moved freely. And it got progressively tougher with each piston. Then I let it sit over night (upside-down, from having torqued down the rod bolts) and it was nearly impossible to move.

I just attacked it with engine assembly lube after wiping all the motor oil out of the cylinder walls. It's probably taking around 80 ft-lbs or so to move. I'm about to install the cam, I was trying to line up the marks for the cam timing. After attacking it with the engine assembly lube instead of washing the cylinders with motor oil, it's quite a bit easier. I assume all is well and I had just let it sit with too thin a lubricant, and all the oil fell out. It still moves a bit rough, but it's pretty clearly those iron rings up against the cross-hatched cylinder walls causing the friction.

 

[daredevil]

oil was fine on cylinder walls, need assembly lube in the bearings.

 

[godfatherofchry]

I have an old steering wheel with a crank bolt welded to it I use to turn my motors over for assembly and the short block can usually be turnt with one hand.and thats with the cam in it.if that helps...Artie

 

[tag]

oil was fine on cylinder walls, need assembly lube in the bearings.

I used white grease on the bearings.

 

[67 B-body]

are they file fit rings? did they get gapped during the assy process?
I know that a tight gap and cyl wall taper can cause the ring ends to close and touch eachother causing bind.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

My 440 is full roller with file fit rings and rolls over easy with the heads on, plugs in gets to compression and tightens up a bit but can get past it with out a struggle. It is fully assembled as well. Sounds like the rings are too tight. Cam in? right crank bearings? Cam bearings?

This was my first engine build as well.

 

[brandon64]

I used white grease on the bearings.

white lithium grease is not a good lube for bearings.

 

[Coronet 500]

My son put a few pistons in backwards in a small block and it got tighter with each pair. It wasn't the pistons but the non chamfer side of the rod big ends binding on the crank journal radius. Just a thought.

 

[godfatherofchry]

white lithium grease is not a good lube for bearings.

I have used white grease on evry motor I have ever biult and bearings have the hase on them after 1000 laps on dirt track motors with no marks on them....Artie

 

[daredevil]

are they file fit rings? did they get gapped during the assy process?
I know that a tight gap and cyl wall taper can cause the ring ends to close and touch each other causing bind.

I would think if your ring ends butt on a cold motor you are gonna break rings or ring lands at operating temp. Are you talking about gapless rings maybe? Maybe i,m wrong. I see youre ase certified. Guess you would know

 

[67 B-body]

I would think if your ring ends butt on a cold motor you are gonna break rings or ring lands at operating temp. Are you talking about gapless rings maybe? Maybe i,m wrong. I see youre ase certified. Guess you would know

Well, something to do during assembly is to put each ring into its individual bore and check the end gap in three spots, at the top half way down, then the bottom of each bore. I know it takes some time to do, but at least you know what you've got. I've used quite a few file fit rings where you have to do this, but it's always a good thing to check, even with "non-file" fit rings. I haven't let them go out of spec, so I don't realy know what all the results could be. I have never wanted to destroy enough engines to find out al the potential failures...LOL!
BTW, gapless and file fit are two different animals. With the gapless, you have an additional "thin" ring that goes in the same ring groove as the compression ring bridging over the gap. The design relys on the cyl pressure leaking behind the top ring, through the groove and then to the second ring to force it out against the cyl wall to seal it. Conventional rings sometimes do this too, but also escapes through the ring gap to seat the second ring. You can see this if you take a good look at the profile of the ring and notice the taper on the ring on the back side "towards the ring groove". I think the first thing that you would notice would be a hard to turn crankshaft during assy. if they are to close with a not so perfect cyl bore. I know some shops will do final hone using a hand held type hone. This can lead to taper if not done right / consistant. Others use a hone on a machine, just as the boring machine does. The later of the two is the best method for consistancy.
One of the other checks "prefered" is to use a telescopic guage to measure cyl bore. Once again, you check in three locations, but at each of the three spots, you will want to turn the guage 90deg and check again. This will show you any egg shape to the bore as well as taper. You end up taking six readings tottal per cyl bore this way. Time consuming yes!
But what the heck do I know,,, mine wont run worth a damn right now!!...LOL, I have other issues though.:angel3:

 

[67 B-body]

BTW, if you decide to check, you can use a piston to square the ring in the bore by placing the ring down in and tipping the piston upside down and sliding it in against the ring.

 

[beanhead]

Damn! My 505" short block takes 37 lb/ft to move it. 36, the wrench clicks..

 

[beanhead]

Double damn!! This thread's older than dirt!

 

[Xp29h]

I bought one of these to turn my motor over with as it was going together. I’ve bust my knuckles up too many times. This way incase things needed to be turned over when in the car, which it did, works very well (with plugs out!)
a bit pricey but it did it..

http://store.440source.com/ARP-Damper-bolt-Socket-Drive-head/productinfo/129-1001/