Least $ power steering box ?

[417guy]

I have a Firm Feel Stage 3 and the Fast Ratio Idler and Pitman arms. MY car feels like a cross between manual and Power assisted steering.
Yes, the stock steering box has its limitations and will still have a little bit of free play no matter how well it is rebuilt. The design dates back to the late 50s so even the best rebuilders are up against an old design from a time where overboosted steering feel was the goal.
The Stage 3 level has a much higher effort built into it. The Fast Ratio Idler and Pitman arms are longer than stock and have the effect of changing the steering ratio from approximately 15.7 to 1 to around 12 to 1. This results in a feel closer to what new performance cars have today. The Borgeson box is based on a much newer design. It is a 14 to 1 ratio which is a step up from the Mopar box but the feel is supposed to be much better. The cost may be coming down as more un its have been sold but for awhile, complete kits with the metric hydraulic adapters and the "no cutting required" hybrid steering coupler were just shy of $900.

View attachment 1196267

Thanks so much for relating how your car is equipped. I’m leaning toward just “ biting the bullet” and getting the Borgeson set up from Bergman. I’ve had this car since ‘98, and had a similar one in high school, so I doubt I’ll ever sell it. I’m sure your set up works well, I’m not sure I could run the fast ratio pitman or idler because of my long tube headers. Thanks again for answering .

 

[417guy]

I have a Firm Feel Stage 3 and the Fast Ratio Idler and Pitman arms. MY car feels like a cross between manual and Power assisted steering.
Yes, the stock steering box has its limitations and will still have a little bit of free play no matter how well it is rebuilt. The design dates back to the late 50s so even the best rebuilders are up against an old design from a time where overboosted steering feel was the goal.
The Stage 3 level has a much higher effort built into it. The Fast Ratio Idler and Pitman arms are longer than stock and have the effect of changing the steering ratio from approximately 15.7 to 1 to around 12 to 1. This results in a feel closer to what new performance cars have today. The Borgeson box is based on a much newer design. It is a 14 to 1 ratio which is a step up from the Mopar box but the feel is supposed to be much better. The cost may be coming down as more un its have been sold but for awhile, complete kits with the metric hydraulic adapters and the "no cutting required" hybrid steering coupler were just shy of $900.

View attachment 1196267

By the way, that’s a great looking Charger !

 

[Kern Dog]

Thank you!
The Fast Ratio arms on a Borgeson box may make the car feel a bit too twitchy. The 14 to 1 ratio is common to many modern cars but the F/R arms may take that close to 10 to 1. Too bad we're going into winter. You'd benefit from driving a car equipped with one of these improved steering boxes. It would give you a clearer idea of what you'd be dealing with.
I did a Tremec 5 speed conversion last Winter. I wanted to drive a 5 speed B body to get a feel for it but didn't know of anyone nearby.

 

[Go mango]

My 69 Coronet has a worn out badly leaking power box and FF rebuild right now has a 3 month lead-time so for temp solution I found a good condition used manual box for $50. At a swat meet two weeks ago, and I bought the power-to-manual steering adapter from Ehrenberg's ebay site for $115. Mancini also sells them. This is my cheap temp solution that will get me by for a while until im ready for either the FF rebuild or possibly the Borgenson conversion.

 

[MoparGuy68]

Get the Borgeson from Bergman like I did. My swap to Borgeson was Super Fun on my Super Bee! Ohh, and you have headers on your car too, like I did.. You can read all about my Borgeson experience on Bergman’s forum here.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

Get the Borgeson from Bergman like I did. My swap to Borgeson was Super Fun on my Super Bee! Ohh, and you have headers on your car too, like I did.. You can read all about my Borgeson experience on Bergman’s forum here.

I'm sure it's in the Borgeson thread and others please confirm what I'm saying, but to the OP, if you go the Borgeson route, please consider addressing the power steering pump. I'm pretty sure I've read in the early Borgeson box installs that the box overworks the power steering pump with too much pressure buildup and there is some sort of PS Pump mod required to address this. There won't be a leak on the 1st day or first week, but I've read one account of the pump housing/fitting leaking about 8 months after install (don't know how many miles driven). Ask Borgeson about it and they may sell the mod, not sure.

I'm curiously watching this thread to hear about the post-install impressions of the OP and would like to know yours as well in terms of steering effort/feel comparison. I've never driven a car with a Borgeson box, but I've heard some say the feel is heavier than the FF stage 2 power steering, but slightly less than rack and pinion. What's your impression? Maybe we should rank these on a 1-10 scale with 1 being the least steering effort with most assist (i.e. stock mopar power steering) and 10 being the highest steering effort with least assist (manual steering).

Here's my intial stab at a ranked estimation list (1=loosest feel w/greatest power assist):

1: Stock Mopar PS
2: Stock Mopar police package PS (cop feel, equivalent to Firm Feel Stage 1 mod)
3: Stock Mopar PS with added restriction washers at PS Pump (could be about the same as 2 above, not sure)
4: Firm Feel Stage 2 mod
5: Firm Feel Stage 3 mod
6: Firm Feel Stage 2 mod + Fast Ratio longer Pitman/Idler arms (I had this on my car and it was just a bit less effort than rack and pinion. I've since removed the fast ratio arms because the feel was a bit too tight and on off-ramps sometimes it felt twitchy if you put in a little too much steering input. Without the fast ratio arms the steering effort decreased by 50%. It was dramatic. In retrospect, I think I'd prefer FF Stage 1 with the fast ratio arms. My FF stage 2 alone feels great, but like Kern said, these stock boxes no matter how firmed up we make them, always suffer from a dead off-center spot from about the 11:30-12:30 position). That would be my one reason to eventually switch to the Borgeson.
7: Borgeson box
8: Rack and Pinion
9: Manual Steering

Those who have driven the Borgeson box, is my ranking shown for the Borgeson correct? Please re-order these as appropriate if you disagree. My intent is to not only educate myself, but also to set accurate expectations for the OP.

 

[417guy]

I have a Firm Feel Stage 3 and the Fast Ratio Idler and Pitman arms. MY car feels like a cross between manual and Power assisted steering.
Yes, the stock steering box has its limitations and will still have a little bit of free play no matter how well it is rebuilt. The design dates back to the late 50s so even the best rebuilders are up against an old design from a time where overboosted steering feel was the goal.
The Stage 3 level has a much higher effort built into it. The Fast Ratio Idler and Pitman arms are longer than stock and have the effect of changing the steering ratio from approximately 15.7 to 1 to around 12 to 1. This results in a feel closer to what new performance cars have today. The Borgeson box is based on a much newer design. It is a 14 to 1 ratio which is a step up from the Mopar box but the feel is supposed to be much better. The cost may be coming down as more units have been sold but for awhile, complete kits with the metric hydraulic adapters and the "no cutting required" hybrid steering coupler were just shy of $900.

View attachment 1196267

Thanks for responding. I’ve wondered about that combination, but pretty much ruled it out because of my hooker long tube headers not working with the fast ratio arms. Looks like I’m leaning toward going for the Bergman Borgeson box. Maybe my Christmas present to me. Thanks again.btw nice charger !

 

[417guy]

Thank you!
The Fast Ratio arms on a Borgeson box may make the car feel a bit too twitchy. The 14 to 1 ratio is common to many modern cars but the F/R arms may take that close to 10 to 1. Too bad we're going into winter. You'd benefit from driving a car equipped with one of these improved steering boxes. It would give you a clearer idea of what you'd be dealing with.
I did a Tremec 5 speed conversion last Winter. I wanted to drive a 5 speed B body to get a feel for it but didn't know of anyone nearby.

I did the tko600 back in 2010. Bought it from Keisler. My car was originally an auto on the column. Have the hydraulic clutch, too. Only issue I ever had was the 2-3 shift at 6000 rpm. Always have to lift. Have about 20,000 miles on the trans now. I never had a chance to drive a tko before I put it in. Just took the plunge. Not sure I would do it again. (Too many variables to list here) that’s why I want to learn from everyone who has changed the steering system before I invest $ and time. I hate doing the work twice as much as I hate wasting the $.

 

[ZR9B]

For people in the Detroit area the son of :Harry's steering gear" works out of his barn. Takes a few weeks but I paid like 200 for the firm feel 1 set up. It's not back in the car yet but a few people I know have zero problems with his work.

Harry was the go to guy in Mt clemens back in the day.

 

[417guy]

I'm sure it's in the Borgeson thread and others please confirm what I'm saying, but to the OP, if you go the Borgeson route, please consider addressing the power steering pump. I'm pretty sure I've read in the early Borgeson box installs that the box overworks the power steering pump with too much pressure buildup and there is some sort of PS Pump mod required to address this. There won't be a leak on the 1st day or first week, but I've read one account of the pump housing/fitting leaking about 8 months after install (don't know how many miles driven). Ask Borgeson about it and they may sell the mod, not sure.

I'm curiously watching this thread to hear about the post-install impressions of the OP and would like to know yours as well in terms of steering effort/feel comparison. I've never driven a car with a Borgeson box, but I've heard some say the feel is heavier than the FF stage 2 power steering, but slightly less than rack and pinion. What's your impression? Maybe we should rank these on a 1-10 scale with 1 being the least steering effort with most assist (i.e. stock mopar power steering) and 10 being the highest steering effort with least assist (manual steering).

Here's my intial stab at a ranked estimation list (1=loosest feel w/greatest power assist):

1: Stock Mopar PS
2: Stock Mopar police package PS (cop feel, equivalent to Firm Feel Stage 1 mod)
3: Stock Mopar PS with added restriction washers at PS Pump (could be about the same as 2 above, not sure)
4: Firm Feel Stage 2 mod
5: Firm Feel Stage 3 mod
6: Firm Feel Stage 2 mod + Fast Ratio longer Pitman/Idler arms (I had this on my car and it was just a bit less effort than rack and pinion. I've since removed the fast ratio arms because the feel was a bit too tight and on off-ramps sometimes it felt twitchy if you put in a little too much steering input. Without the fast ratio arms the steering effort decreased by 50%. It was dramatic. In retrospect, I think I'd prefer FF Stage 1 with the fast ratio arms. My FF stage 2 alone feels great, but like Kern said, these stock boxes no matter how firmed up we make them, always suffer from a dead off-center spot from about the 11:30-12:30 position). That would be my one reason to eventually switch to the Borgeson.
7: Borgeson box
8: Rack and Pinion
9: Manual Steering

Those who have driven the Borgeson box, is my ranking shown for the Borgeson correct? Please re-order these as appropriate if you disagree. My intent is to not only educate myself, but also to set accurate expectations for the OP.

thanks so much for the response to this,the ranking is an interesting take. I have a Saginaw pump, rebuilt, with the pressure reduction washers in it. Of course I still have play that is most noticeable on the highway at 70+. That’s what I want to get rid of. My car has bigger tie rod ends, solid tie rod sleeves, all new bushings, welded braces on the lower control arms,QA1 upper control arms.caster is about 4 degrees. Also subframes and torque boxes. My old roadrunner had manual steering, but it’s been so long I don’t remember what it felt like. If you’re running the fast ratio arms what does it take to clear exhaust ? Manifolds ? Shorty headers ? Will TTI long tubes clear ? I appreciate everyone’s responses greatly !

 

[417guy]

My 69 Coronet has a worn out badly leaking power box and FF rebuild right now has a 3 month lead-time so for temp solution I found a good condition used manual box for $50. At a swat meet two weeks ago, and I bought the power-to-manual steering adapter from Ehrenberg's ebay site for $115. Mancini also sells them. This is my cheap temp solution that will get me by for a while until im ready for either the FF rebuild or possibly the Borgenson conversion.

Does it steer good at 70mph+ ?? I drive mine on the highway about half the time I’m in it. I’ve got 235-60-15 on the front on 8” rims. My arms would likely get a workout parking, but if it drives good at speed, I’m ok ! Would not mind converting to a manual box if I thought that was a good solution, I just don’t like doing the work twice ! Not lazy really, just rather be doing other things !

 

[Kern Dog]

If you’re running the fast ratio arms what does it take to clear exhaust ? Manifolds ? Shorty headers ? Will TTI long tubes clear ?

I have 2" TTI headers and mine clear.

I also have the Fast Ratio arms in my "Jigsaw" Charger and they almost clear with the Hooker 1 7/8" headers. I had to dent them a little!

For the record.....TTI stated in the installation instructions that their headers do NOT clear. Obviously in my case they do.

 

[417guy]

If you’re running the fast ratio arms what does it take to clear exhaust ? Manifolds ? Shorty headers ? Will TTI long tubes clear ?

I have 2" TTI headers and mine clear.


View attachment 1196854


I also have the Fast Ratio arms in my "Jigsaw" Charger and they almost clear with the Hooker 1 7/8" headers. I had to dent them a little!

View attachment 1196857

Mine are the hooker 1 7/8 headers, that looks do-able !

 

[Kern Dog]

OOOOops....
Maybe, maybe not. The 2" set isn't just 1/8" larger, they have the pipes in a different arrangement. It is best to see if you have more than One inch of clearance with your stock idler and Pitman to your existing headers. The F/R are about 3/4" longer so you'll need that much more room at a minimum.

 

[417guy]

OOOOops....
Maybe, maybe not. The 2" set isn't just 1/8" larger, they have the pipes in a different arrangement. It is best to see if you have more than One inch of clearance with your stock idler and Pitman to your existing headers. The F/R are about 3/4" longer so you'll need that much more room at a minimum.

Thanks I’ll crawl under the car soon and take a look !

 

[OKDart]

Here's another option for a new gearbox, has anyone used this? $363.79 + $17.99 shipping minus 5% discount code = less than your max budget.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=8889412&jsn=532

As far as feel, I like a stock PS box with a 14" steering wheel. The stock steering wheel diameters were designed for manual steering.

 

[417guy]

Here's another option for a new gearbox, has anyone used this? $363.79 + $17.99 shipping minus 5% discount code = less than your max budget.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=8889412&jsn=532

As far as feel, I like a stock PS box with a 14" steering wheel. The stock steering wheel diameters were designed for manual steering.

I had not seen that at Rockauto. School me on what a smaller diameter wheel does for the “play” at 70mph ? I’m not enough engineer to figure that out

 

[OKDart]

I had not seen that at Rockauto. School me on what a smaller diameter wheel does for the “play” at 70mph ? I’m not enough engineer to figure that out

If you have to move a 16" wheel back and forth an inch to keep the car straight, it would obviously be less with a 14" wheel as your hand is closer to the center of the wheel. How much less? I'm sure there's a formula, but I don't know it.

 

[417guy]

If you have to move a 16" wheel back and forth an inch to keep the car straight, it would obviously be less with a 14" wheel as your hand is closer to the center of the wheel. How much less? I'm sure there's a formula, but I don't know it.

I noticed that my car would have the same steering wheel if manual or power steering ! Simple for Mopar , plus more leverage for manual. Thanks for answering that !

 

[69_Coronet]

If you have to move a 16" wheel back and forth an inch to keep the car straight, it would obviously be less with a 14" wheel as your hand is closer to the center of the wheel. How much less? I'm sure there's a formula, but I don't know it.

In the case you mention, the play would drop to 7/8". The difference in play would change by the ratio of the new wheel to the original wheel. Cheers!